Can Al Franken change his mind and stay?

Politics & Elections
101

Its how women have managed to avoid sexual assault by people they sort of know or know for years. “Yeah, if you go to the state fair and meet Franken, don’t let him get too close.” or “If Jim has been drinking, make sure you don’t sit next to him at dinner.”

And when you’ve been hearing that off and on for six years, and then this comes out you say “gee…shocker.”

So maybe we should be careful, but for some of us, its been how we’ve been retaining our dignity and avoiding having our asses squeezed by some entitled guy (and having Jim’s wife potentially embarrassed when we say “get your hand off my fucking thigh!” in the middle of dinner.)

102

OK, that makes sense and it adds the nuance needed to avoid a “burn the witch” conclusion.

103

So his fellow senators finally evolved a conscience? Oh iiandyiiii.

104

I don’t particularly care whether they did it out of conscience or political concerns. Doing the right thing is doing the right thing, even if the reasons aren’t pure. And this is how politics are supposed to work – pressure politicians to do the right thing, even if they do it purely to avoid negative political consequences.

105

I see a claim of a lack of faith in the institutions we have and the people who work in these institutions based upon their demographic characteristics. Feels Trumpy.

Again, nobody is tolerating his behavior. I am not sure I want to live in the kind of country that speaks of high standards for public office, but judges only by the mob and political benefit.

As far as I am concerned an election was overturned without any significant objective investigation. I actually want an investigation anyway regardless of Franken’s investigation.

106

Good luck finding a country to live in where elected officials never do anything because of political benefit. If you do find one, let us know.

107

I might tell you but I won’t tell iiandyiii because he’d just come with his mob jury and ruin it.

108

It might be important to explain the subtext here for people for whom it won’t make sense.

When women call this behavior out there are only a few probable responses (and variants thereof) - and one unlikely one:

  1. What’s the big deal? (and its variant - why are you ruining his life?)
  2. I don’t believe you, where is your evidence?
  3. You asked for it.
  4. Some sort of lip service, followed by some sort of ostracization

And the unlikely one:
5) You are taken seriously and someone addresses this behavior with the person perpetrating it. The behavior either changes, or the person who assaulted you chooses one of the previous four paths.

(You notice a lot of the first two in this thread)

Because this sort of behavior isn’t serious enough to merit legal involvement, your best case and highly unlikely scenario is that the guy hears your complaint and addresses his behavior towards you and other women. And at least one of the probable scenarios has significant downsides for you.

So women protect themselves by informing other women, privately - about men who “misbehave.” Because there isn’t really anything else (to this point) to be done about ass grabs in photos or on elevators or persistent propositions.

And right now, the chickens are coming home to roost. I like Franken. He’s done a lot of good. He’s really smart. But eventually, if you live a public life or you do this in the workplace, or even if you continue to behave boorishly around your friends’ wives and girlfriends, someone is going to make a big deal about this sort of thing, and it might catch the public attention - and if its behavior you’ve been doing, you are going to get “shocker” from a bunch of women who have heard the whispers while additional women step forward. And when its a bunch of women - then all those first four responses look inadequate. And the fifth looks like a slap on the hand for a long term pattern of unacceptable behavior - now it is a big deal.

Now, all you guys who keep wondering about one incident - if the one incident was always addressed seriously, and then you took steps to address your behavior, then we’d never get to the Franken point with anyone. You’d learn the first time you tried to grab someone’s ass before you’d established that going for the sexy parts would be ok (usually that’s preliminary things like holding hands, a first kiss, or someone saying “wanna fuck”) to do a better job of establishing consent. But you haven’t given us enough upside for us to have a middle ground from putting up with it to it becoming a big fucking deal. (And it isn’t just men, we get it from other women, which is why its coded to them as “hey, don’t stand next to Bob in the elevator, he can get handsy” and not “Bob grabbed my ass in the the elevator!”)

109

Dangerosa nails it as per usual. I wish you hadn’t learned that in the worst possible way.

110

God forbid I criticize politicians!

111

Thanks.

112

And Franken won’t rescind his resignation because his behavior - which I have described as “a pattern of inappropriate behavior” can be easily cast as “a pattern of creepy behavior” or even “a pattern of predatory behavior.” Franken isn’t dumb. Dayton isn’t dumb. The Minnesota DFL - well, they are dumb…probably dumb enough to encourage him to stay.

113

Seconded, Dangerosa; great post!

114

Yeah, it does.

Despite recently-posted sophistry on how employment situations are (it’s been fallaciously argued) completely and utterly unlike court proceedings, the fact remains that the ‘accusation = guilt’ position is a profoundly immoral one. It does reek of Trumpism.

Yes. That type of system is dangerously antithetical to democracy and the rule of law.

I suspect you may have meant “resignation” as the final word, there. In any case, I, too would like to see a full investigation of the charges against Franken. But respect for due process must step aside in favor of political expediency.

115

date is set, he’s gone as of Jan 2nd.

116

The social and professional consequences of a big deal but not big enough for the legal system are vastly different today with practically free and global mass communications.

117

So what is the alternative? Put up with it?

118

And good riddance to that smarmy harassing jackass.

119

Or risk having your own life torpedo’d when you aren’t believed, ostracized, and evidence is demanded? How does one provide evidence of “he grabbed my ass in the elevator?” Or “he made sexually suggestive and offensive comments when we were alone?”

In this case more than one woman has come forward about something the whisper network has known for years, and there is photographic evidence of an example of really poor judgement regarding the issue. This isn’t an innocent man seeing his career ending - this is a man whose been getting away with something for years getting caught, getting called on it, and being held to a standard of appropriate behavior that does not include ass grabbing. And his career won’t end. He still has a lot of value as a lobbyist, as a writer, and as a thinker. But not as a U.S. Senator.

If I had someone in my circle of friends that grabbed asses at parties, he wouldn’t be invited to any of mine. I can expect my Senator to live up to those same societal standards I expect from my friends.

120

This question was asked on page one of the thread and,
so far as I can recall, not answered, so I thought I’d revive it:

How about the rest of the jury? What if he ran again and won?