Imagine that you or someone close to you has reason to have some encounter with (1) a group of people–not just one individual–who are (2) of a specifically identifiable ethnic group, and (3) (and this is essential) these folks are clearly drawn from a set of circumstances commonly associated with that group. (From the thread that inspired me, say, (2) a group of gypsies (3) who are known to be living in a caravan; or alternately (2) a large contingent of young Chinese Americans (3) who are known to be studying calculus.)
In this upcoming encounter, you already have reason to feel some element of apprehension: say, people fitting all three conditions mentioned above will soon be renting your house for the summer while you’re away. Or your kid will be going on a weekend trip with these folks. Or you’re considering opening a store at some location, and you’re told that right next door there is a popular hangout for group X from circumstances Y. Or maybe you’re just walking down the street, and you see a large group of X, who give every appearance of coming from circumstances Y, are walking right toward you going the other way, and looking at you.
Absent any other information or indications, is one ever justified in altering one’s actions or attitude (don’t rent the house to them, tell your kid she needs a chaperone, decide on a different store location, skedaddle to the other side of the street)? Poll to follow shortly.
Cultures can certainly have well-deserved reputations. However, you cannot tell from someone’s ethnicity what culture they belong to. The Chinese-American kids studying calculus could be the children of first generation Chinese immigrants or they could be fifth generation Americans. Or (unless you are good at determining ethnicity from appearance) they could be Japanese. The white woman delivering your mail could be a Boston Brahmin, a redneck, or a Russian Jew.
Furthermore, you can’t tell to what extent any individual or group of individuals conform to or deviate from the norms of whatever culture(s) they belong to. Maybe that group of Chinese-American kids are studying Calculus together because all the other Chinese-Americans in their class are way ahead of them, and these ones would rather “study” while listening to music and playing video games.
Is an Italian-American in the mafia more likely to be aggressive and untrustworthy than average? Of course. Is an Italian-American sitting outside a pork shop more likely than average to be in the mafia? Unless you’re in The Sopranos, only slightly. Is a group of Southern white men driving pickup trucks with gun racks and Confederate flags more likely than not to have hold racist beliefs? Sure. Is any group of white men? Probably not.
That’s why I specified “these folks are clearly drawn from a set of circumstances commonly associated with that group.”
Imagine that you are an African-American man on a business trip in some town, and you’re deciding where you want to go for lunch, by yourself. There’s one restaurant which looks promising, but as you approach it you see it’s mostly white men in there and in the parking lot are quite a few pickup trucks with confederate flags and gun racks: it’s not just any group of white men, but a group that shows signs of belonging to a certain subculture. Is it reasonable for you to assume that as a black guy you’ll likely encounter racist attitudes in there and it’d be better to steer clear of that particular restaurant?
Well, “deserve” insofar as “it is reasonable to take some action based upon it.” Not in a moral sense, I suppose: if you fully comprehended the circumstances of Group X, you might well do the same in their shoes; but for the topic I had in mind that’s neither here nor there.
But then it’s not just about ethnic group, is it? If you only knew they were white, you wouldn’t have much cause to assume anything. If you only saw their pickup trucks, but not the people, you’d be justified in being uncomfortable. That’s why I made the distinction between ethnicity and culture. Culture often follows ethnic lines–I’d be surprised if I saw the pickup trucks and then learned that the restaurant was full of African-Americans or Arab Muslims or French Canadians. But knowing only their ethnicity wouldn’t tell me anything, and seeing the artifacts of their culture, knowing their ethnicity wouldn’t add anything significant to my knowledge.
This addresses one of the things that generated my interest, from the prior thread cited in the OP:
So by your reasoning (Alan Smithee), the camp next door to the Boy Scouts were simply a group of random people, and the fact that they were camping out there would have no association or pertinence to the fact that they were Gypsies, and the parents were being unreasonable in steering the kids clear of them. Is that right?
I don’t think you’ve been paying attention. The fact that the people were ethnically Gypsy (whatever that means–it’s largely used as a slur) may or may not be related to the fact that they were camping. The fact that John Gotti is Italian-American is related to the fact that he was a Mafia boss, but knowing that someone is Italian-American isn’t enough to draw any conclusions. ZPGZealot is ethnically Romani, but I don’t think she’s more likely to rob you or steal your children. She is, in fact, culturally Romani, but she’s still not going to rob you. She won’t even tell your fortune. If the people in the camp obviously practiced a nomadic, itinerant lifestyle that might be relevant to assessing risk. Finding out whether they are Romani or Irish Traveler or poor white Scots-Irish Protestants probably wouldn’t do much to alter that assessment either way, though it might account for the lifestyle.
I appreciate and applaud your sentiments; however, before anyone else jumps on this portion of your post like a dog with a meaty bone, let me say: I would tell your fortune if you were over 18 and asked. Whether or not I asked for any money for this would depend on how well I know you and how of much time and supplies you wanted me to use in divination. And a million times less likely to steal children than anyone on Earth.
Well I stand corrected! I assumed that fortune telling was either part of the stereotypical “gypsy” behavior more related to making money without the usual opportunities of settled people than to actual Romani culture, or else part of the insular family tradition unlikely to be shared with outsiders (or necessarily practiced by modern generations). Since neither one is apparently the case, I’d be very interested in learning more about the reality of Romani fortune telling beliefs from you, though this thread probably isn’t the bast place. Would you be game to starting a thread about it or participating in a thread if I were to start it?
IMO, regarding some cultures, even if they did not ALL “deserve” it, sufficient of them are of such a way that I assume them all to be like that till proven to not be so.
ie guilty untill proven innocent.
Well that thread didn’t do much to help my position! I’d read ZPGZealot’s posts about being a librarian recently, so I’d assumed she didn’t do professional fortune telling. I guess she conforms more closely to the perceived norms of her culture than I realized.
None of the examples of the OP demonstrate a deserved reputation.
Just because people fit a stereotype in some ways, doesn’t mean they fit all the stereotypes that are assigned to that group. Yeah, the Asian college students may be over there in the corner studying calculus, as expected, but this doesn’t mean they are the best students in the class. Or that this is all they ever do.
Maybe the pick-up trucks belong to a bunch of self-identified rednecks, but this doesn’t mean they are racist. Or prone to violence.
If you look at anyone with a small enough lens, you’ll see them fitting a stereotype. Like, yesterday I had fried chicken and grape soda for lunch. The horrors!
Except that it was chicken breast…in a giant salad. And it was literally three sips from a bottle of grape soda–an unwanted gift from the confused vending machine.
Even if I had eaten a full fried chicken and a 1-liter of grape soda, that doesn’t mean I have a mouthful of gold teeth and that I just got out of jail. It just means that at the particular instance you’re examining me, I look like a stereotype.
To be honest I wouldn’t do most of the fortune telling if the economy was better (there are certain long term clients who out of friendship or duty I would always be willing to work with), but with higher education budgets being slashed left and right and less and less financial aid availablle I have no choice.
IMHO, there is an inverse relationship between the size of the group and the claims that can be truthfully and meaningfully made about them. So, if the group you are talking about is large (e.g., all white people in all times and places), then the claim you can make about them is really small (e.g., average height or other measurable characteristic v. other such groups). If the group you are talking about is small (e.g., a particular ethnic group at a particular time in a particular place), then it can be more OK in some circumstances to make generalized conclusions about their likely proclivities (i.e., that they are more likely to hurt you than are other people).