[QUOTE=Terr]
It was obvious what happened - to anyone except the most devoted of Obamabots. Obama got in too deep and stood to be humiliated by the no vote in Congress (hell, even Senate started leaning “no”). Putin offered him a straw, a barely face-saving out. Obama grabbed at it with both hands. Now Obama is neutralized (if there was no hope for a “yes” vote from Congress before, that has only solidified more now), and Assad/Putin can play games with Obama for the rest of his term while Kerry and Obama ineffectually huff and puff.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, 'cause Putin would want to save Obama’s bacon. :rolleyes: Get real. Your little scenario doesn’t even make any logical sense. If Putin really thought Obama was going to fail, he’d be all for that as it would achieve his overall goal of not having the US bomb Syria. Obviously HE (and Assad) DID think we were going to bomb them or they wouldn’t have bothered putting all of this together. And only a devoted Obama-hater would be blind to this as it’s pretty freaking obvious to any reasonably unbiased view point. Nothing else makes any sort of logical sense, as anything else assumes that Putin would WANT (or care) to pull Obama’s chestnuts out of the fire…and that Assad would play along to even give lip service to this whole thing if they really felt Obama was going to fail to be able to bring military force to bear on Syria.
Oh it won’t be 2 months. It will drag out for at least 6. And by then the “urgency” of the strike will fade. It is a lot easier to argue “punishment” for something that happened a few weeks ago than 6 months ago.
Perhaps you should re-read what you said, as you have now changed your position. Here, let me help you out:
[QUOTE=You]
It was obvious what happened - to anyone except the most devoted of Obamabots. Obama got in too deep and stood to be humiliated by the no vote in Congress (hell, even Senate started leaning “no”). Putin offered him a straw, a barely face-saving out. Obama grabbed at it with both hands. Now Obama is neutralized (if there was no hope for a “yes” vote from Congress before, that has only solidified more now), and Assad/Putin can play games with Obama for the rest of his term while Kerry and Obama ineffectually huff and puff.
[/QUOTE]
Certainly Putin wanted to neutralize the possibility of a US air strike. The reason he did is because he didn’t want a US air strike to possibly destabilize Syria and potentially de-ass Assad from the throne. The only reason for this entire logic train is because he (and Assad) DID think that we were going to strike, one way or the other.
The only way, long term, for Putin/Assad to ‘neutralize Obama’ is if the Syrians DON’T USE FREAKING WMD IN THE FUTURE. If Assad and Syria doesn’t, then yeah…mission accomplished. That was the whole point of this exercise.
Putin didn’t want to save Obama’s bacon - Putin could barely care less about Obama. What he did do was recognize a weak, floundering Administration desperate for some way out and Putin provided it - not to help Obama, but to help Putin, by making HIM look like a peacemaker and making Obama look like… well, Obama. To use language that some might understand - Obama OWES Putin for this. Of course his supporters will try to spin this as some Cunning Plan ™ by their hero, but nobody - and I mean NOBODY - outside the echo chamber will believe that. Putin put Obama in his place by “helping” him out of a tough spot. Now Russia has the upper (and only) hand.
Really - he’s a chess master playing with a checkers novice. His supporters need to look more than 1/2 move ahead…
Obama asked for Assad to resign…so did a bunch of other world leaders. Yeah, that’s just wind. It’s called ‘being a politician’. We were never going to physically oust Assad…and our Euro buddies were even less inclined to actually do anything at all. Hell, I’m not even sure we WANT to oust Assad, considering the alternative is a pack of freaking radical AQ rebels and gods know what else, who would probably be fighting among themselves for years to come if they manage to pull Assad down and give him the Kaddaffi Duck treatment. Again, for at least the 6th time now, the point of all of this was simply to punish Syria and Assad for using chemical weapons on their own people and to prevent him and them from doing it again. If we achieve the latter part of this (i.e. prevent Assad et al from using WMD on their own people in the future) then we will have achieved our only real goal in all of this…punishment was always just a means to that end.
Then it must be written in code and translated from Swahili to Mongolian and then to English, because it’s pretty plain that it’s a different position. In the first one you are saying that Obama was going to fail to be able to use military strikes against Syria and Putin(!!) pulled his chestnuts from the fire…which is ridiculous and makes no sense. Then you modified that to it’s all a trick by Putin and Assad to pull the wool over Obama’s eyes and ‘neutralize’ him (though why, if they though Obama’s fangs were pulled is a mystery).
Oh, and one more thing - Syrians are still dying, and will continue to die. The CWs might be confiscated and destroyed (eventually, maybe, if we’re lucky), but nowhere in this entire argument is there even a hint of a way (or desire) to stop the killing.
What a load of horseshit. There was NEVER any intention of stopping the killing in Syria, nor any realistic way to do it. Good grief, no wonder liberals on this board get so frustrated by board conservatives! What a ridiculous statement.
It makes sense if you understand (but you seem to be absolutely incapable of doing so) that Putin does things for Putin. If that seems to pull Obama’s chestnuts from the fire, fine, but that’s not the reason for doing things. So yes, Putin’s goal was neutralizing Obama. If that also provided some face-saving cover for Obama - that’s a side effect.
If it drags out 6 months, then I agree. It will be a distant memory. As long as Assad doesn’t use CWs again, he’s probably safe. But we may begin arming the rebels in ernest, although I hope not. I just don’t have faith that they will be any better than Assad.
[QUOTE=Terr]
I know. Most of what Obama says is just wind.
[/QUOTE]
Substitute ‘Obama’ for ‘any and all politicians’ and you have the right of it, especially when dealing with world politics and such an unstable situation as Syria.
Sanctions. Threat of military strikes. Seems to have done the trick, as Syria is now willing to talk about turning over their chemical weapons stockpiles to international inspection.
:smack: Well, it would help if you could read what I write with comprehension in mind. I’ve been trying to beat it through YOUR head that Putin does things with Putin in mind, so telling me that I’m incapable of understanding this is kind of silly. He DIDN’T pull Obama’s chestnuts from the fire…that’s YOUR fucking fantasy. The reality is that he and Russia were worried about an air strike by the US that could lead who knows where, and Assad was probably frantic about it, so they cooked up this plan to prevent it. It makes Putin look good…like a peacemaker and certainly a player on the international level, and that’s all stuff he needs, considering his rep. Assad now has a chance to not have the US involved, so now all he has to do is deal with the rebels, so that’s a huge relief for him. Both parties are now pretty much on the hook to ensure that Syria doesn’t use WMD again in the future…which, for the 7th time now was the whole point of the exercise. It was NEVER about de-assing Assad from the throne, nor about shifting the balance of forces in the civil war. That’s on the Syrians, and while it’s harsh it’s really for everyone’s best interest, including the Syrians, for them to work it out themselves. The ONLY thing in this whole mess that we were dealing with is the Syrians using chemical weapons, and that seems to have now been dealt with…and if not, well, those air strikes are always available, and after all of this you can pretty much bet that they will happen if Assad fucks up again.
I know you and others desperately want Obama to look bad in all of this, but the reality is that Obama is getting everything he wanted, and without all of the bad press of having actually gone through with the attacks, which our Euro buddies would have raked us over the coals for. Obama is totally off the hook now. If Syria plays nice, well, Putin will look good for brokering this whole thing, and Obama will look restrained. If Assad fucks up, Putin looks VERY bad, and we get our air strikes anyway, and the Europeans can shut the fuck up…and so can the Republicans, because we will have given peace a chance and had it thrown back in our face. Either way, Obama comes out ahead. Hopefully it will be a win/win for Putin and Obama, but either way the US gets what it wanted, which is for Syria to stop using chemical weapons on it’s own people.
Has Obama stopped arming the rebels? What on earth is your point that Assad is making noises about it. And of course Obama wont attack before the transition occurs, but unlike Iraq and UN Res 1441 there must be some kind of deadline for when the transition begins. You see Putin and Assad have admitted they have the weapons so its not like Iraq where the regime denied having them and offered to let the CIA come in to look for them. Assad knows where these weapons are. In Iraq it was Don Rumsfeld who knew where they were. So we get a deadline or we bomb them with or without Congress and lib Dems and their Tea Party Obama hatin’ allies against it.
Why is it that you think Putin offered Obama a chance to save face when he did? If Obama was headed for humiliation by rejection in Congress Putin would have served himself and Assad better by waiting for that humiliating vote to occur.
Then Putin can make the same offer or accept Obama’s offer if that is how it really went down, but appear much less to be the peacemaker after Congress presumably told the CinC to stand down or face impeachment.
Putin should have waited and then put the flowers in his hair.
What made him give in to Obama so early in the game?
I’m not seeing this either, to be honest. Let’s say it DOES drag out for 6 months. The American people forget about it because the fall season of Survivor is back on and this is much more riveting. Then Assad decides no one is looking and pops some more chemical weapons on his people and kills a few hundred more women and children. We’d be in exactly the same place we are now. Folks had kind of lost track of all of the carnage going on in Syria and weren’t really paying attention until this chemical weapons attack…then it became big news. This next theoretical time, though, the administration will have a much stronger case to take before Congress and the American people. We gave peace a chance after all and they decided to use the things again. I can’t see how Obama would NOT be able to get authorization, and probably enthusiastic authorization from Congress, even the freaking Republicans if this came to pass.
To Terr, what XT wrote and a clue for you about what just happened. The very best use of military force is to achieve your military objective by the mere threat of use of force without having to actually use it.
Or maybe Putin looked into Obama’s eyes and saw the American soul. Obama had sung out a few soul brother lyrics so this could be it too. Just thinkin’
We certainly are giving peace a chance. This is now giving Putin a chance to straighten out his puppet regime in Syria or start losing his Naval Base. Putin has so much to lose while Obama can only lose the affection of the far left base and the isolationist independents both of which are sick of wars mostly because of Iraq.
:smack: Uh…did you really just saying ‘a few soul brother lyrics’?? I have to say, in all honestly, it’s really uncomfortable having you on my side in this.
I wanted to say licks but that’s on guitar, so I couldn’t think of the right word. My points are what matter and Obama did wear mom jeans when he threw out the first pitch once I heard.