Can anyone explain the appeal of this "be a musician" video game? (Rock Star?)

It may well be a fad; I’m not sure how far you can take the basic concept before it becomes too convoluted to be fun anymore, and as rigid as the games’ structures are, it will get boring before too long if they don’t change something (but then, I’ve been wrong about that before). Even if it is, though, like CarnalK said, why in the world would that stop it from being fun in the meantime? It’s new, it’s now, and people are having a good time doing it, so what of it? A rigid structure, or the sometimes-fleeting nature of popularity, doesn’t mean it can’t be any fun.

Eh, kids these days. No accounting for tastes. (Seriously, the point of the long-jumping thing was that there are plenty of activities with rigid structures that nobody gets all “WTF?” about. I just picked long-jumping out of a hat.)

My first post in this thread explained:

–I haven’t played the game
–I can’t see how I would enjoy it
–Others have felt the same and have ended up enjoying it anyway
–For that reason, I ought to go try the game.

The post was meant to imply a sort of bemusement at the fact that such a “change of heart” seems inevitable, based on the evidence, and at the fact that I’ll have to accept this no matter how clear it seems to me that the game could never be any fun.

Sorry if the above sounded a bit curt. I’m still being affected, in terms of mood, by the post I just authored to Hentor the Barbarian in that strange trainwreck of a conversation we are trying to have with each other.

-FrL-

All I did was make a general statement that I thought your observation would apply to most games, and this seems to have set you off significantly. Don’t know why, don’t much care. The only aspect of what you said that is not true of games in general is that there is no mystery to what you need to do in GH. If it’s important to you, I acknowledge that it is not correct to say that such is true of most games.

Sorry I forgot it was you who started the thread. Been a few days since I read the OP and I don’t tend to pay attention most of the time to WHO is saying stuff, I just read the post. My favorite is drums on Rock Band, by the way, as far as what is the most fun. I totally see where you are coming from in not seeing how it would be fun, because I felt the same way.

Something weird has happened. I just can’t figure out what you’re talking about.

We seem both to think the other has been “set off” and we seem both to think that we ourselves have not been “set off.”

I’ll chalk it up to internet conversation confusion weirdness.

Anyway, I think it’s interesting to figure out what sets GH off from other games that makes some people think it couldn’t ever be any fun. But my finding it interesting isn’t the same as my being “set off.” Maybe my interest in pursuing the matter appeared to you to be insistence of some kind and that made you think I was upset or something.

I don’t know. Never mind.

-FrL-

Nono, I didn’t start the thread. My first post is buried in the middle somewhere. That’s why you didn’t see it. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

-FrL-

By the way, when I said

I misspoke. Of course it’s pretty much impossible for a game not to prescribe actions to some extent. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.

-FrL-

You see how easily I am confused in my dotage?

That’s fine. For my part, I don’t suppose I’ll ever welcome being smugly told that I am trivially and obviously incorrect.

What I said (and meant) is that I must have been incorrectly understanding what you were saying, because what it looked to me like you were saying was trivially and obviously incorrect.

I stand by this.

And I don’t think you really mean to say that the description I gave of GH aptly describes all games. Subsequent comments from you in this thread have confirmed my suspicion that I was not understanding you correctly.

-FrL-

You what else involved mindlessly following a set pattern of button presses?

Playing a REAL instrument. That is, until you are good enough to be able to improvise and add nuance to your playing. But if you sit down to learn the piano, or the saxophone, or a guitar, for a long while your experience is going to be very similar to what you do in guitar hero - you’re going to read a note, position your fingers accordingly, and try to play it. For a long, long time, your standard of excellence will be to play the notes in the right sequence with the right rhythm to make the song sound roughly like the song should sound.

99% of people never get past the stage of rote repetition of the notes they see on a page. And 99% of them never get to the point where the music they play sounds really pleasing to the ear.

To go further than this requires hundreds or thousands of hours of dedicated practice. And even then, you’re still making solo music in a room by yourself or maybe with a couple of friends or family members listening.

What Guitar Hero does is take the essential experience of making music and make it accessible to everyone. It gives you incentive to practice by simplifying enough that you see real progress fast and by incorporating game elements that make it addictive. Trust me, when you get to the expert level and you’re making music happen by flying your fingers all over the place and strumming an intricate rhythm, you really aren’t that far off the experience of making real music. Plus, in Guitar Hero you get to do it in front of a crowd of thousands of cheering fans, with an awesome-sounding backing band behind you.

That’s what is compelling about Guitar Hero.

The games it should be compared to are not strategy games or first person shooters. Rather, it should be compared to flight simulators and driving simulators - games that take the essense of something fantastic and out of reach for most people and distill it down and package it so you can experience it at home.

I wasn’t comparing music games to sports games. I was saying that

music games : music :: sports games : sports.

Even when you so clearly are?

This right here is the core disconnect. In your FPS example, you aren’t “waiting for it to tell you” anything. You, the player, are a causative agent in the game. You yourself are the one that causes the bad guy to be lined up in your sights. You aren’t “waiting” for anything.

That’s the polar opposite of the “simon paradigm.” I love me a good game of simon, and I was fond of Pa-Rappa Tha Rappa, so I’ve no doubt I’d enjoy Guitar Hero. But anyone who thinks that the player has an equal role in the “simon says” genre of games as in other genres, they’re smoking crack.

Even in pong, the player was a causative agent, because you could opt to hit the ball with a fast or slow swing, or with the edge of the paddle, or whatever.

In that case, your post was off-topic. Football came up not in the context of how videogames model their real-life counterparts, but rather as an example of a game that isn’t on rails, unlike Guitar Hero.

Rock Band is:

A. Not playing a real instrument

B. Really fun

C. That’s it

Yeah, I think Tengu must have been thinking of games like the old House of the Dead where the game just floats you from place to place and you just have to shoot at whatever appears on the screen. That is closer to GH than a full-blooded FPS would be.

-FrL-

Word. I just went to a piano recital. First graders working out Silent Night and Eight Graders playing a simplified Pachebel’s Canon - badly.

It made me wonder about simpler times when people did use their home pianos for entertainment as opposed to an educational supplement. My husband’s cousin will visit and sit down at the piano and she can really play fairly well, sight read music, and its pleasant (although even she is just hitting notes in the right order - she isn’t good enough to improvise).

My point was that the question of “on rails” or “not on rails” was irrelevant. Let me try again, even though I’m rapidly getting the impression that SAT-level logic flies a little too high for this thread:

Football videogames are not on rails because real-life football is not on rails.

Rock concert videogames are on rails because real-life rock concerts are on rails.

With few exceptions, if a real-life rock band plays their hit differently from how the audience expects it to be played, the audience will be pissed. Yes, there’s a little bit of room for improvisation in live rock, but not much. When the guitar solo rears its beautiful head, it’s generally expected to be perfectly polished through intense rehearsal. So any rock-game detractor whose complaint is that rock games don’t have enough room for spontaneous creativity is completely missing the point. Now, if the game were called Jazz Band, she would have a point. For now, that dog don’t hunt.

If you are a session musician, or a musician playing in a large band, you are expected to play the notes in front of you exactly as they are originally played, or as the conductor or arranger wants you to play them. There is no room for improvisation or injecting your own interpretation into the music in any way. A session drummer who is ‘in the groove’ will be hitting the rhythm exactly as its put down on the page without the slightest amount of deviation.

Now, when you get to solo playing, blues, jazz, or other improvisational styles there is certainly plenty of room for injecting your own interpretation into the music, but for many, many musicians this is simply not the case.

I’ve been playing music on various instruments for 35 years - never at a super high level, but well enough. Guitar Hero honestly doesn’t feel that different to me in many ways than some instruments do. If you play a MIDI keyboard with velocity turned off (like many old synths that you can hear in ‘real’ music), the only way you can change the music is to change the timing and duration of the key presses. Would anyone argue that that’s not making music?

Guitar Hero isn’t a fad - what it is is just the first product in an entirely new way of making and experiencing music. There will be competition, there will be other products coming out that allow more expressiveness. You can bet on it. For instance, it wouldn’t be that hard to add velocity sensitivity to the strum bar, and give you extra points for hitting with the right volume level, perhaps as shown by the width of or size of the notes on screen. You ca n already add your own vibrato and bends with the whammy bar - I can see that morphing into a game that requires you to bend notes to match the music for extra points, either with the whammy bar or perhaps by pushing laterally on the fret buttons like bending strings.

I fully expect that someone will eventually come out with games that let you use other kinds of instruments like saxophones or keyboards. An Irish Whistle only has six holes on it - such an instrument would be easy to fit into the ‘guitar hero’ user interface. There are already MIDI controllers that have breath controls and buttons to simulate woodwind instruments - I can imagine such instruments in the future being bundled with a ‘game’ that consists of a guitar-hero like interface and a hundred songs that you can learn to play. Different skill levels might introduce different techniques, and at the end you’ll be playing on expert with a band - but you could unplug the controller and keep playing into a synth and be making real music. So the line between a game and real music starts to get awfully blurry.

I’d love something like this for keyboards - at easy level you play the song with one hand, melody line only. As the difficulty level goes up you start adding chords, position changes, your left hand, etc. When you’re 5-starring songs on keyboard hero, you really know how to play a keyboard.

Then there’s the other side of it - ‘Rock Band’ is being touted as not just a game, but as a vehicle for appreciating music. Harmonix plans to make thousands of songs available for download, and they believe that people will want to build music catalogs and just sit down for an hour or two and play along to some of their favorite music - not to beat high scores or see how fast they can shred, but just to experience music they like in a more interactive form. We’ll see how well that takes off, but it’s certainly something that appeals to me.

I think we’re really just seeing the start of things to come.

Well, as kushiel pointed out, GH is not the first product in this category, but it is the first one that gained wide acceptance and popularity. I’m not sure when a product, idea, whatever goes from being a fad to being a sustained phenomena. Rock music itself was a fad, one that lasted and so is a fad no longer. Drive-in movies were a huge fad in the 50’s and 60’s that have all but died out. I do know that something isn’t “not a fad” because Sam Stone says so. Come back in five years and we’ll see if this product is still around, and, more importantly is still as popular and continued to evolve.

ETA: I’ll also note that something isn’t “is a fad” (if that makes sense) just because I say so. YMMV.