Can comics be saved by hot girls?

Paris Hilton isn’t a physical impossibility. Mental, perhaps, but not physical. :slight_smile:

Again I’m going to ask, “So?” The point is this: What hot girls like (or tolerate, just so long as they consume) becomes/is popular. Therefore, if the comics industry could get hot girls to like comics, they would become popular.

That’s an absolute true statement. And the way to do that certainly isn’t by uglying up the female characters to better reflect culture - as Cosmo et al. provide evidence that hot girls will most definitely accept, nay embrace, unreal expectations for their bodies.

And I forsee a marketing disaster if the comics industry attempts this. Because what will happen is that they’ll go about it the wrong way - they’ll pick a market sampling that’s popular with the not-hot girls and try to doll it up as marketable to the hot girls, when they should find something that’s marketable to the hot guys and provide a female alternative.

Basically, all it comes down to is the fact that the hot girls have them by the balls (as if we didn’t know that already).

Scroll up to shy guy’s post.

Peter David once proposed that female comic book characters have a harder time making it in the pop-culture market because they have a hard time getting respectable enemies in the eyes of their male audience members.

If the female hero beats up a male villian, the male reader/viewer gets uneasy.
If the female hero beats up a female villian, the male reader/viewer feels the villian wasn’t much of a threat anyway (the “But she’s a girl!” syndrone).

In contrast, the two most successful female heroes in pop culture have been Ripely from Alien and Sarah Conner from The Terminator, who fought non-gender-threatening aliens and cyborgs.

BTW:

Where did I say anything about “uglying up the female characters to better reflect culture”? You clearly don’t understand whay I’m saying here. The minority of female comic book characters are in the style of Frank Cho while the minority are, as shy guy put it, hideous caricatures geared toward fifteen-year-old heterosexual boys.

The minority of adult female comic book characters are in the style of Frank Cho while the majority are, as shy guy put it, hideous caricatures geared toward fifteen-year-old heterosexual boys.

Firstly, I’d argue whther those two are really the most successful female heroes when I see no mention of Star Wars’ Princess Leia, Xena Princess Warrior or the various heroic Disney Princesses (Ariel, Pocahontas and Jasmine, esp.) Also, their status doesn’t quite hold up when you consider other recent female pop culture heroines with broad appeal with girls and boys: Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The Incredibles’ Elasti-Girl, Tomb Raider’s Lara Croft, Harry Potter’s Hermione Granger or even Peanuts’ Lucy Van Pelt. Kiddo from Kill Bill Vols. One and Two is popular with men and women (for women willing to sit through the gore.)

I think one thing a lot of female superheroes lack is gender empathy: a boy will put up with a girl in the story, but to be popular with boys she just needs to show some T&A. To be credibly popular with a female audience, little girls need to want to admire the character’s personality, looks, principles and be like them overall. Too few male writers are up for fleshing out the latter aspect of the female dynamic, although they’re really good at specifying how hot she should look.

What about Buffy? She’s certainly very popular, both among males and females. While she does occasionally battle nonhuman demons, aren’t most of her foes recognizably men? Well, they’re not exactly human, but they look it, which I would presume is the relevant factor for the reactions you describe.

Askia wrote:

I think the problem is the opposite. I think writers use these Lifetime Movie issues to disempower female characters, whether that’s what they mean the outcome to be or not. This denies girls an equal share in the power fantasy, because female characters are often foiled by their sex. Doing more of this can only make it worse. You can bring up menstration, and it’s an issue that girls can identify with, but I don’t see it helping girls identify with the character better. Instead, I think it will trigger resentment over the way girls are dismissed and belittled in real life over menstration – that they are viewed as less capable and inclined toward irrationality at certain times of the month.

Clearly, personal drama has a place in comics. The enduring appeal of Spider-Man is that he is sensitive, and his problems with supervillians tend to become problems in his personal life. But this is a delicate balance they’ve found for Spider-Man. In general, comics are escapist. Saddling female characters with female problems is not escapism.

You refer specifically to Wonder Woman, but as I recall, Gloria Steinem saw Wonder Woman as a role model when she was a child.

But there’s the dilemma. If you make a female character as strong and unfettered as a male character is allowed to be, Askia will complain that she’s just a male with tits. If, on the other hand, you make an effort to establish her feminine bona fides, someone like me will complain that you’ve yoked her to a lot of baggage that male characters would not have to put up with.

There’s an argument to be made either way. Manga is mentioned as being popular with girls. In something like Sailor Moon, superheroines are often silly, neurotic, catty and boy-crazy in their personal lives. I would argue that rather than keeping them down, as they would in American-style comics, these factors actually drive them to kick ass. On the other hand, it’s not as though these characters are burdened with Lifetime Movie issues either.

Just an aside - I think that attracting women to comic books is pretty low on the reaosns why the comic book medium is currently a big, stinking turd (with reflecting sales).

One of the main things I’ve noticed happen to comics over the past 15 years is that they seem to have given up on being their own medium and playing to that strength; instead, we have comics (as a medium) emulating lowest-common-demoninator action movies, video games, and so on. With the exception of a few interesting creators pushing the medium (like Grant Morrisson), most books are emulating other media in an attempt to bring a “mainstream” (non-nerd) reader. But that elusive “mainstream” reader is never going to get into comics, period. You will not see fratboys going down to their comics shops to pick up “X-men” because they liked the movie; they’ll just watch more action movies.

Here’s a great Grant Morrisson quote about this:

“Wise up: the more comics imitate movies, the less need movies will have for comics as a source of imaginative material; let’s remember that the movie industry is ONLY NOW learning to simulate the technology and imagination Jack Kirby packed in his pencil 40 years ago. As I’ve been saying to the point of boredom for the last couple of years, our creative community owes it to the future to produce today the insane, logic-shattering, side-splitting day-glo stories which will be turned into all-immersive holographic magic theatre experiences in 40 years time. The comics medium is a very specialized area of the Arts, home to many rare and talented blooms and flowering imaginations and it breaks my heart to see so many of our best and brightest bowing down to the same market pressures which drive lowest-common-denominator blockbuster movies and television cop shows. Let’s see if we can call time on this trend by demanding and creating big, wild comics which stretch our imaginations. Let’s make living breathing, sprawling adventures filled with mind-blowing images of things unseen on Earth. Let’s make artefacts that are not faux-games or movies but something other, something so rare and strange it might as well be a window into another universe because that’s what it is. Let’s see images which come directly from the minds of inspired artists, not from publicity stills. Superhero comics are way too expensive for the mass market and the brand of garish, violent pulp they were once the only source for is available these days in more attractive media. We should get real about this and stop dumbing down, stop stunting our artists’ creativity and stop trying to attract a completely imaginary ‘mainstream audience’. The best way to consolidate comics as a viable medium is to make them LESS like other media, not more. Let our artists go wild on imaginative page layouts. Let our writers find stories in their dreams and not in the newspaper pages, at least for a little while again. Aim for the cool, literate ‘college’ audience, as Stan Lee did to great success in the 60s.”

(the rest of the interview is here)

I think it’s interesting that you mention Spider-Man, Johnny Angel, since a Spider-Man-like female character is what so many comic writers are unable or unwilling to tackle. I don’t think this is necessarily their fault, simply because most of them are male, and trying to write a character as tied up with female issues as Spider-Man is tied up with male issues when one hasn’t lived through those experience is difficult, to say the least.

Which isn’t to say that there aren’t writers who can do it. Peter David wrote one of the most engaging characters, male or female, in the last 10 years in Supergirl (of course, the fact that, no matter what you do, she’s the female version of Superman, is another thing that comics have to move away from).

I think the problem that a lot of writers have in writing female characters is that they don’t even recognize traits that they’d normally ascribe to their male characters as “male,” and so are unable to write characters like Wonder Woman as anything but males with breasts.

There’s really no reason why a female character can’t have “female” problems (which, on the whole, aren’t that different from the problems of males, but are different nonetheless) but not get bogged down in them just like Spider-Man has “male” problems that don’t turn his book into an after school special.

But, again, this isn’t easy to do in a market that caters almost exclusively to young males, who by and large aren’t interested in female characters outside the realm of eye candy. I think what rjung posted of what Peter David said is very true. Not only are female characters routinely assigned to the “female ghetto” when it comes to villains (all of their villains end up being women - happens to Wonder Woman a lot), they’re also almost always less powerful than their male counterparts and peers, and these facts are usually taken for granted.

I think this thread is really interesting, so I’ll respond to more issues raised when I have more time.

I won’t argue with the premise that “If hot girls gravitate around a scene, then that scene is cool”, but I don’t think it’s possible to make or market a product that appeals specifically to hot girls. Hot girls don’t have exclusive tastes or interests that are not shared by average looking girls. The comic industry could make itself more appealing to girls and women in general, but an attitude of “we only want the hot ones!” sure isn’t going to do that.

And let’s be honest here, many male comic fans probably would not do very well on “Hot or Not?” If hot guys gravitated around the comic scene it would be cool too, and bringing in the ladies wouldn’t be a problem. But in the opinion of many girls and women, comic book fandom largely consists of unattractive, immature, obsessive, hostile, and possibly deranged losers. This may not be fair, but that’s the image. Shedding that image would be a big step towards attracting those valuable “hot girls”.

As for content issues, I don’t know much about what’s in comics. (I’ve rarely looked at them, I guess because I’m so hot! :cool: ) But my impression is that that even when there are female characters, there are no female friendships. Comic heroines seem to be alone in a man’s world. They don’t spend much time with other women, unless the other woman is a villainess. They don’t seem to have any real “gal pals”. Most women do not live this way, and most would not want to.

Johnny Angel. Wow, dude. You don’t get me at all.

In the hands of a lesser, misogynist male writer female issues somehow hold back female characters Because most men write men’s fantasies for superheroes without considering the differences for women and men characters – or male or female readers.

A male power fantasy rests on coercion, authority and conflict and exerting that power in defense of an ideal or to promote one. For men, that kind of power usually means sacrifice --which is why most male superheroes are only children with no marriages, no children and all relationships are essentially temporary ones. Batman epitomizes this.

Female power fantasies means having it all: physical power, the equivalent of male authority, feminine beauty and sensuality, and somehow balancing career and family – all the appeal of being a woman, masterfully handled even in the auspices of a man’s world. Most women’s fantasies (and what are Romance novels but just that?) revel in this – think of the movies Working Girl and The First Wives Club and even Thelma and Louise.

I’m saying, why not acknowledge this difference in comics and just DEAL with it?

I never cease to be amazed at how many times I’ve seen variations on the “Why don’t more girls/women read comics?” question. Speaking as a woman who never read comics until I approaching my third decade of life, I find the answer remarkably simple. American publishers churn out comics almost exclusively in one genre - superheroes - and aimed at teenage to mid-20’s boys. Then they wonder, “Why don’t more women read comics?”

The few books with genuinely strong female characters aren’t necessarily easy to locate on the shelves, which is a major problem when most of the books are sold in specialty “destination” shops, many of which have a well-deserved reputation for not being female friendly. The fact that the publishers slap lots of T&A on the covers doesn’t help (Greg Horn, I’m looking at you).

If, god forbid, a female gets so far as to actually read one, she’s usually subjected to content that either ignores women, writes them as ridiculous caricatures, or subjects them to misogynistic plot lines and art. Supposedly “stong” female characters almost always wind up being made less threatening to adolescent male readers in some fashion. (I weep that many comics readers think Wonder Woman is the epitome of a strong female character). Are there great books featuring well-rounded female characters? Yes. But just try finding them at your local retailer without a pick-axe, compass, and Sherpa guide - assuming he carries them at all. If not, guess what? You get to plunk down a not-insubstantial cover price, sight unseen, for something in a medium that all but puts up a “Keep Away” sign at the front door.

And then, the kicker: a writer at a major comics publisher actually poses the age-old question in a way that manages to slight a major part of the audience he pretends to want to court: “Why don’t more hot, attractive girls read comics?” (note: girls, not women - you’ll hear comics industry professionals generally describe male readers as men, but all females are “girls.”) Apparently he thinks the physical attractiveness (to men) of female readers is what will draw a female audience. :rolleyes: The money spent by average women isn’t good enough. Average women couldn’t possibly have friends that they could encourage to read comics, and spread the word to an under-served audience. No, gotta be hotties to do that. Everyone follows the trends set by the hot girls. Uh, not in my reality, they don’t.

As a woman, I completely relate to the male power structure you described, and am revolted by the female power fantasy you described. Then again, I’m not a hot girl.

I don’t agree with that perception. Male characters have to deal with parents, siblings, lovers dying, dating problems, issues with their father, their own fear of impotence in the face of danger, being socially outcast, not fitting in… Look at Spiderman or Batman. Comic book superheroes have a lot of problems. Female characters should have the same volume and type of problems–not more or less. And for the most part, in modern comics, they do. But no one reads them.

I composed a reply to this thread a couple of hours ago, but then got called away suddenly. I see that Selkie has touched on a couple of issues that I also thought of, so I’ll post what I previously wrote for what it’s worth:

I’m not a woman, but I am getting back into comics after a 30-or-so year absence. I like what become available over the last few years, and my tastes do not lean towards superheroes. I’m quite enjoying, for example, Bill Willingham’s Fables series, and Mike Carey’s Lucifer books, to name only two. Neither deals with superheroes, and each has strong, independent female characters.

I think that while there are some great non-superhero titles available, I also think that the marketing of these titles could be better. I stumbled across Fables and Lucifer while perusing a comic shop looking for Neil Gaiman’s Sandman books. But since these and other similar titles tend not to be sold in regular bookstores (though that seems to be changing slowly), nor advertised anywhere except in the comics and comics-related press, I wouldn’t have known about them had I not gone into the comics shop.

And, since most comics nowadays are sold only through comic shops, we should take a look at them too. I’ve been in a few comic shops that make the Android’s Dungeon on the Simpsons look like Sak’s Fifth Avenue; and whose clerks make Comic Book Guy seem downright pleasant and helpful. (Though, to be fair, only the worst have been like this; many have been on par with or better than the Android’s Dungeon, and one or two are indeed very nice places to go.) Clean and brighten up the shops, and hire clerks who, like any bookstore employee, will help patrons to find what they’re looking for, and/or be able to recommend something. The members-only-what’s-the-password clubhouse mentality complete with the “Aw, Mom, do we hafta let girls into our club?” attitude isn’t helping your business, Comic Book Guys; you’re turning off potential customers.

It would seem to me that if you want to get hot girls, or any woman for that matter, to buy such titles, then you’ve got to use a non-comics medium to get the message to them that titles they might like are indeed available, and that there is a place to buy them where they’d be helped with their selections–and be welcome besides. I’m sure such things are possible, and may be worth a try, since the current method just doesn’t seem to be working that well.

That’s part of the reason manga has been so successful. Borders Bookstore carries a wide selection (and accounts for something like 65% of all manga sold in the US) and they’re often displayed very near to the young adult titles. The mnaga isn’t buried over in the sci-fi section like the regular comics.

The selling other point is you can get a lot of manga for not much money since they’re black and white. Graphic novels are so much more expensive for fewer pages. I think what kinda hurt the comic industry was it’s wholesale shift to color. It makes it much more expensive to print and doesn’t add all that much to the storytelling.

Some people in this thread are making WAAaAAaAyy too much misogyny out of the “hot girls” remark. Any fandom event that will get women out in droves will also get a disproportionate number of hot girls out in full effect, too – and fairly cute girls who are making an effort to clean up real good, and the tagalong girls who don’t realize they’re hot because of the Joey Tribbiani Hot Girls Who Don’t Realize They’re Hot Principle. Anyone offended by my use of “girls” in this context instead of ladies, women, womyn or may correctly assume I’m being somewhat paternalistic: I always get this way when I’m thinking about a meat market. I’ll all about the breasts, legs and thighs. However, like many black men, I savor equal portons of white and dark meat. Mmmm.

I suddenly realize I’m not sure if I’m talking about women or dinner.

A-hem. ANYHOO–

I began with suggesting ways to make superheroes more palpable to female audiences… but having finally eaten and gotten my blood sugar levels normal, I realize this is largely impossible. Goes against too many precepts and conventions of the superhero genre. So forget it.

DC’s VERTIGO imprint does a lot to appeal to women: it has comics geared to a more female sensibility, plenty of strong women characters and a decided paucity of superheroes, and all guided by the expert hand and studied genius of Editor Karen Berger. All that stuff I wrote about “Lifetime movies issues” can apply to a large spectrum of comics I’ve read there – not the least of which were SWAMP THING, SANDMAN, THE DREAMING, Y: THE LAST MAN, FABLES, even parts of PREACHER.

I disagree that you can’t market to hot girls… I think if you gear your comics to young women between the ages of 18-35, the hot ones will come… and the cute ones, the plain Janes, the intellectual, introverted closet freaks who don’t think you’re all that cute, but you’re reasonably funny and you look like you could move in the bedrom so what the hell. (YES!! I can’t tell you how many times that’s gotten me over!! Okay… only once.)

I think Hudlin is pretty clever in framing the question in a “hot girls” mode… he knows guys will do ANYTHING for hot girls. Hell, we might even pen up our little dank comics shops and buy STRANGERS IN PARADISE.

May I also note that of the two dozen or so comics related threads I’ve particpated in in the last month, this one has the MOST women Dopers respond to it. See? Just mention “hot girls” and everyone comes a-runnin’…

Rysler. I am somewhat surprised to hear you prefer male power fantasies – but do you think my assessment of female power fantasies is off-base or what I described just doesn’t appeal to you?

Comics have pretty much always been in color. However, paper quality and color quality has improved.

I think this is a good point, too. There are lots of times when I don’t want to step foot in my local comic shops because of the people who hang around there (it’s called soap and water, people - look into it), so I certainly don’t blame any girls, let alone hot ones, for not doing so.

Again, I think more girls will gravitate toward comics when comics are available in places that aren’t comic book stores. tremorviolet makes a good point that you can walk into any Borders and find all kinds of manga. Without the horrible comic book store stigma.

shy guy wrote:

The closest I’ve seen is, of course, Spider-Girl. I like the comic, for all the complaints I have about it, but it strikes me that the closest they’re willing to go to a female equivalent to Spider-Man is a character who is still pretty and popular, and who finds herself rescued more often than a male character would be.

Askia wrote:

I assume you take this notion from reading feminist literature, or perhaps from some exotic comics you’ve been reading, because you are not getting it from reading the comics I read. The people who use power coercively in mainstream comics are called villians. The power fantasy presented by Spider-Man, the X-Men and the like is not about having power and using it to hurt people and bend them to your will, but having the power and having the character to use it judiciously. That character is essential to the fantasy, the mercy, the judiciousness, the willingness to sacrifice one’s own wants even when one has the power to be extremely selfish. There is a borderline with comics like The Punisher, who I would argue represents a fantasy of hurting people back. Aside from that, can you name any mainstream comics that are about coersion?

I come back to Spider-Man. His is an ethics of care. He is a caregiver, and is himself cared for by the very people close to him that he so struggles to protect while protecting helpless strangers as well. That’s the fantasy that he represents – to have great power, but to accept great responsibility.

Wolverine is a gruff, brooding man who is accustomed to battle. There are a lot of these in the Marvel universe. But Wolverine is more popular because we know that in spite of all this he is a man driven by care, a man whose personal sense of justice is founded in a love of mercy, a big brother to waifs and strays, a caregiver. This is the power fantasy that Wolverine represents – to be an nigh invulnerable brute, but ultimately a protector.

What comics are you reading, and how are you reading coersive power fantasies into them?

Rysler wrote:

If you only give female characters the same kinds of problems male characters have, what’s to stop Askia from insisting that they are just men with ta-tas?