Can consciousness be observed?

Great Debates
101

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Whatever you want to believe is fine with me, I realize there is a controversy over what is “brain dead” now that near death experiences are being studied. But for the purposes of near death experiences a brain that is not functioning, shows no activity of any kind, can not collect data as done by the experiencers, so it makes little difference what you call it. Remember the eyes are closed and fixed as in death, but things are still seen by the experiencers. Some experiencers have been declared dead and sent to the morgue before “coming back.”
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It’s called “making a mistake”. They thought the person was dead; they were wrong. Nothing mystical about it. And any “controversy over the definition of brain dead” has little to do with fringe goofyness like near death experiences. They are obviously hallucinations. Cherry picked hallucinations, at that; you don’t hear about the obvious hallucinations like floating towards a bright light down a tunnel made of televisions. You only hear about the appropiately mystic sounding ones.

And assuming that your various ancedotes actually happened, how did they know the eyes were fixed ? By opening them - which meant they had an opportunity to see. And of course hear. Was everything for every second recorded so there was no chance for an eye to flick open or a remark be overheard to fuel these supposed mystic visions ? Somehow I doubt that; like everthing else mystical, I expect that skepticism and close observation makes it vanish. Almost like . . . it was never real at all.

102

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
It’s called “making a mistake”. They thought the person was dead; they were wrong. Nothing mystical about it. And any “controversy over the definition of brain dead” has little to do with fringe goofyness like near death experiences. They are obviously hallucinations. Cherry picked hallucinations, at that; you don’t hear about the obvious hallucinations like floating towards a bright light down a tunnel made of televisions. You only hear about the appropiately mystic sounding ones.

And assuming that your various ancedotes actually happened, how did they know the eyes were fixed ? By opening them - which meant they had an opportunity to see. And of course hear. Was everything for every second recorded so there was no chance for an eye to flick open or a remark be overheard to fuel these supposed mystic visions ? Somehow I doubt that; like everthing else mystical, I expect that skepticism and close observation makes it vanish. Almost like . . . it was never real at all.
[/QUOTE]

Well, so far skepticism has not made the research on NDEs vanish. The accounts given of what happened while they were brain dead are accurate, verified by physicians in attendance so that rules out hallucinations. The number of studies by qualified researchers working at mainstream universities are in agreement. Near death experiences do show that consciousness continues to live after the death of the body and brain. Now there are dozens of studies, twenty years from now there will be hundreds of studies. I would think most people would be pleased to find some evidence of life after death, but maybe not. It really doesn’t matter what people believe, or what I believe, as has been said many times on this board, science is interested in finding truth, so if this is truth, and I believe it is, it will eventually overcome any objections by the skeptics.

I will post another link, I didn’t write this link, but I coded in HTML so it could be easily read. It is a good summary of where the research on near death experiences is today and what the studies has shown. I hope you will enjoy it.

It contain and leads to literally hundreds of more links that show what is being studied about consciousness.

103

[QUOTE=lekatt]
You will know by the condition of your body. Now, here I am guessing, but yes, I believe Terri’s spirit did hang around the body until the final death of the body. She would have witnessed all the controversary and known exactly what had happened that caused her body to be in the condition it was in. In the spirit world there are no secrets of any kind.
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So, her soul was smarter than Bill Frist? That might be the most uncontroversial thing you’ve ever written. :slight_smile:

The thing is, her body might have lasted (and did last) for years. Was her soul stuck hovering around? Did it know for sure somehow that she’d never recover? And what do you mean by final death? A stopped heart is not final death. Is it brain death? If people recover from either, how long does the soul wait?

104

[QUOTE=lekatt]
You are correct, of course, this in itself is not evidence of a non-local consciousness, but if when the person is revived, this person knows what went on while his brain was dead, then we have a puzzle. How could consciousness still function while the brain is dead? All the research being done on near death experiences are aimed at solving this problem. People who have near death experiences do know, and describe accurately those things that happen around them, and even at some distance from their body, during the time their brain is clinically dead. Now this is evidence of a non-local consciousness. This is evidence of a separation of consciousness and brain.

So now we begin to look at the research being done in this area.

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html#a2

Dr. Bruce Grayson, has been published in a peer-reviewed journal “The Lancet.”
He collects veridical NDEs, ones that have been verified by the physicans in attendance at the time.

There are dozens of these studies, but we can start with one.
[/QUOTE]
I do think that the only type of evidence that can compel belief in the supernatural nature of NDEs are instances where the individual supposedly learns something while dead that they cannot possibly have learned through conventional means prior to or immidiately before or after the experience (including while sedated). There is no reason to discuss any other aspect of the NDE until this point is firmly established, since any unverifiable events (such as meeting God) could merely be a notably vivid dream, in theory.

Which brings us to your cite. Funnily enough, the link did not take me to a study, but rather a short write-up about Grayson, which seemed to contain one anecdote relevent to the discussion; the one about how Al Sullivan was able to report the doctor’s arm-flapping method of keeping his sterile. My question is, is there definitive proof that the doctor never flapped his arms at any other time than when Sullivan was clinically dead? Video footage, one camera pointed at the room, one at his face, with timecodes to verify when precisely his eyes were fully closed? Absent that, the most obvious thing to assume is that Sullivan saw the doctor flapping while merely sedated, which makes the anecdote unconvincing as evidence - even if the doctor was convinced at the time.

105

[QUOTE=begbert2]
I do think that the only type of evidence that can compel belief in the supernatural nature of NDEs are instances where the individual supposedly learns something while dead that they cannot possibly have learned through conventional means prior to or immidiately before or after the experience (including while sedated). There is no reason to discuss any other aspect of the NDE until this point is firmly established, since any unverifiable events (such as meeting God) could merely be a notably vivid dream, in theory.

Which brings us to your cite. Funnily enough, the link did not take me to a study, but rather a short write-up about Grayson, which seemed to contain one anecdote relevent to the discussion; the one about how Al Sullivan was able to report the doctor’s arm-flapping method of keeping his sterile. My question is, is there definitive proof that the doctor never flapped his arms at any other time than when Sullivan was clinically dead? Video footage, one camera pointed at the room, one at his face, with timecodes to verify when precisely his eyes were fully closed? Absent that, the most obvious thing to assume is that Sullivan saw the doctor flapping while merely sedated, which makes the anecdote unconvincing as evidence - even if the doctor was convinced at the time.
[/QUOTE]

You can find Grayson’s research on the Lancet. There are other stories about Grayson that list parts of his research. You are asking a good question, one that every NDE researcher has asked, and answered. The answer is yes, there are hundreds of veridical near death experiences in which the experiencer returns to life with information he could not have known before his clinical death. I know people have often said “maybe this or maybe that” but there are so many of them it would be impossible for all of them to be a mistake. All researchers say the information is in fact information not availble to the experiencer previous to their clinical deaths. Grayson has a large collection of veridical NDEs.

I can offer some veridical NDEs for your reading if you wish.

106

[QUOTE=Voyager]
So, her soul was smarter than Bill Frist? That might be the most uncontroversial thing you’ve ever written. :slight_smile:

The thing is, her body might have lasted (and did last) for years. Was her soul stuck hovering around? Did it know for sure somehow that she’d never recover? And what do you mean by final death? A stopped heart is not final death. Is it brain death? If people recover from either, how long does the soul wait?
[/QUOTE]

Not sure who Bill Frist is, and what his part was in the event.

In the spirit world time does not exist, so would not have been a factor for the spirit. I don’t know if her spirit knew she would recover or not, but it is common for the spirit to hang around until the final death. Some say there is a silver cord that connects the spirit to the body until the body dies, while I have not seen this cord there are many who say they have, to me it is an unknown. The spirit is not necessarily smarter, just has access to more knowledge than us humans. All knowledge of everything is available in the spirit world.

107

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I know people have often said “maybe this or maybe that” but there are so many of them it would be impossible for all of them to be a mistake.
[/QUOTE]

Not only is it possible, it is highly likely - given the calibre of the evidence you have presented as representative of these “near death experience”.

108

[QUOTE=lekatt]
You can find Grayson’s research on the Lancet. There are other stories about Grayson that list parts of his research. You are asking a good question, one that every NDE researcher has asked, and answered. The answer is yes, there are hundreds of veridical near death experiences in which the experiencer returns to life with information he could not have known before his clinical death. I know people have often said “maybe this or maybe that” but there are so many of them it would be impossible for all of them to be a mistake. All researchers say the information is in fact information not availble to the experiencer previous to their clinical deaths. Grayson has a large collection of veridical NDEs.

I can offer some veridical NDEs for your reading if you wish.
[/QUOTE]
There are no quantities of people too large for them to all be mistaken, and “hundreds” is not even close to enough for me to doubt their correctness. You yourself claim that the millions of religious people who believe in a judgemental god are mistaken, so clearly it is possible for the few hundred or thousand people who think they’ve gained knowledge from an NDE to be mistaken.

And when you say that “all researchers say”, here, you are extending hyperbole to the extent of absolute falsehood. Comments like this harm your credibility. (And you do make rather a lot of comments like this.)

Frankly, I don’t think there have been any veridical NDEs that are verified beyond the point of mere anecdote, since doctors don’t typically set up the large amount of cameras and close monitoring equipment necessary to take one beyond the “Gee, maybe that happened while he was actually dead” realm. If I’m wrong about this, I would be interested in being directed to the research studies done on the resulting videos, audiotapes, and cardiopulminary & brainwave readings.

109

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Not sure who Bill Frist is, and what his part was in the event.

[/quote]

You have to stop reading Spook Journal and catch up on the news! Bill Frist, a surgeon, was Senate Majority Leader during the time of the controversy. He watched a video of her and claimed that he could tell that she was aware from it. Search for one of the many Schiavo threads if you want more info.

Cite? :slight_smile: I’ve not heard that time doesn’t exist in the spirit world before. Does that mean a spirit can go to any time? Can I get haunted by my own ghost? It’s nonsense, but you’ve come up with a great idea for a fantasy story there.

110

[QUOTE=Anduril]
Not only is it possible, it is highly likely - given the calibre of the evidence you have presented as representative of these “near death experience”.
[/QUOTE]

The calibre of evidence is the same as for all science research, and they are published in peer-review journals. Since I didn’t do this research you need to take up your exceptions with the doctors who did do the research and not me.

111

[QUOTE=begbert2]
There are no quantities of people too large for them to all be mistaken, and “hundreds” is not even close to enough for me to doubt their correctness. You yourself claim that the millions of religious people who believe in a judgemental god are mistaken, so clearly it is possible for the few hundred or thousand people who think they’ve gained knowledge from an NDE to be mistaken.

And when you say that “all researchers say”, here, you are extending hyperbole to the extent of absolute falsehood. Comments like this harm your credibility. (And you do make rather a lot of comments like this.)

Frankly, I don’t think there have been any veridical NDEs that are verified beyond the point of mere anecdote, since doctors don’t typically set up the large amount of cameras and close monitoring equipment necessary to take one beyond the “Gee, maybe that happened while he was actually dead” realm. If I’m wrong about this, I would be interested in being directed to the research studies done on the resulting videos, audiotapes, and cardiopulminary & brainwave readings.
[/QUOTE]

I said all NDE researchers and I meant that statement, not one serious NDE researcher has not become a believer. I don’t care about my credibility, it is not my research that shows this evidence. Frankly, I don’t think you would give credit to any evidence that violated your belief system no matter how compelling. Which is ok with me, all of which you speak has been covered in one experience or another.

112

lekatt, how does your framework of belief accommodate or explain mental impairment due to brain damage/injury (or other malady)?

113

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I said all NDE researchers and I meant that statement, not one serious NDE researcher has not become a believer. I don’t care about my credibility, it is not my research that shows this evidence. Frankly, I don’t think you would give credit to any evidence that violated your belief system no matter how compelling. Which is ok with me, all of which you speak has been covered in one experience or another.
[/QUOTE]
No, see, when your credibility goes low enough you start convincing people that the position you’re advocating is wrong. Given time, you could find yourself driving people to embrace science by the droves. (Assuming you haven’t already.)

And you did NOT say “all NDE researchers”. That’s a lie. And I don’t believe for one second that all NDE researchers are convinced. If they were, then it would be accepted science by now. Oh wait; you moved the goalpost to serious NDE researchers just now; the scores of unconvinced researches ‘just aren’t serious’. That would be No True Scotsman, right?

All of which I speak? Let’s assume you’re referring to the “research studies done on the resulting videos, audiotapes, and cardiopulminary & brainwave readings” of a sufficiently monitored NDE experience, that I asked about before. You have references to those? Don’t hide your light under a bushel, bring 'em on!

114

[QUOTE=begbert2]
No, see, when your credibility goes low enough you start convincing people that the position you’re advocating is wrong. Given time, you could find yourself driving people to embrace science by the droves. (Assuming you haven’t already.)

And you did NOT say “all NDE researchers”. That’s a lie. And I don’t believe for one second that all NDE researchers are convinced. If they were, then it would be accepted science by now. Oh wait; you moved the goalpost to serious NDE researchers just now; the scores of unconvinced researches ‘just aren’t serious’. That would be No True Scotsman, right?

All of which I speak? Let’s assume you’re referring to the “research studies done on the resulting videos, audiotapes, and cardiopulminary & brainwave readings” of a sufficiently monitored NDE experience, that I asked about before. You have references to those? Don’t hide your light under a bushel, bring 'em on!
[/QUOTE]

Arguments addressed toward me and what I have done will not be answered. They become he said, I said, they said, nonsense. I am debating the local, or non-local consciousness. If you have questions about the subject of the debate I will try to answer them.

I can’t possible give you an education on near death experiences on this board. You will have to do some reading on your own.

115

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
lekatt, how does your framework of belief accommodate or explain mental impairment due to brain damage/injury (or other malady)?
[/QUOTE]
I have posted about this many times. The brain is an interface between spirit and body. If part of the brain is damaged then whatever function was handled by that part of the brain will be impaired. You (spirit) are not impaired. You will then transfer the function to another part of the brain and in time the function will be restored. That is if the damage is not too extensive in which case you go out of body and the body dies. You remain alive.

116

Surely if that were the case, then if function were restored, you’d remember being fully coherent in yourself, but just not in control of your body, wouldn’t you? How do you account for genuinely impaired cognition?

117

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
Surely if that were the case, then if function were restored, you’d remember being fully coherent in yourself, but just not in control of your body, wouldn’t you? How do you account for genuinely impaired cognition?
[/QUOTE]

Good question. I am not sure how it happens, but I can suggest some things from what I do know. It is true that one can take a blow to the head and lose some memory, amnesia is a fact. Now is there damage to the part of the brain that accesses that memory from spirit, or is that memory somehow stored in the brain. We know that most people regain that lost memory in the future, so that would seem to be a transfer of brain function rather than storage of memory in the brain. Similar to other brain function transfers. If the memory were stored in the brain and damaged by the blow I don’t think it would ever come back. However, some would say it proves memory stored in the brain, yet none has ever been found. So, I am not sure, but I will try to find out. I do know that once you leave your body, you are fully conscious in all ways, but the body you left behind doesn’t have much meaning to you. People who have a choice to stay in the spirit world or come back to the physical choose to come back because of the people they love who are still in the physical. That’s why I chose to come back, to support my family. Never had a thought about missing the physical world.

If you are asking why you are not knowledgable about being a spirit in a body, then the answer is the body blocks that knowledge because almost everyone identifies with their body as being who they are. There are a few who do understand and know they are spirit in body. One of the reasons we go through this physical life is to learn we are spirit in body and in doing so gain a lot of spiritual growth. But that is another subject.

Well, I tried.

118

[QUOTE=lekatt]
We know that most people regain that lost memory in the future, so that would seem to be a transfer of brain function rather than storage of memory in the brain.
[/quote]
Wrong. Occam’s Razor points to either damage to storage in the brain, or damage to the access to that storage, or disruption of the memory storage process itself ( meaning no memory was ever stored ). Not to any links to a physics-ignoring “spirit” that we have no evidence is even possible. And I’d never heard that “most” people recover from amnesia.

[QUOTE=lekatt]
However, some would say it proves memory stored in the brain, yet none has ever been found.
[/quote]
People have been doing things like stimulating brain tissue to access memories for decades; you are simply wrong.

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I do know that once you leave your body, you are fully conscious in all ways, but the body you left behind doesn’t have much meaning to you.
[/quote]
You know nothing of the sort. Your beliefs are simply wild guesses. And foolish ones, completely lack in plausibility.

Something as implausible as a physics defying spirit is so unlikely as to require extraordinary evidence to be taken seriously, much less accepted as truth. That evidence does not exist. There’s simply no evidence that what you believe in CAN exist, much less does exist.

119

Lekatt, there’s more than just memory to account for (in fact I’d say it’s one of the less important things your framework of belief needs to explain) - how about cognition itself, personality, emotion and so on - these things - the things that we consider to make us ourselves - can be radically altered by changes to the brain. How can a person’s actual personality appear to change after a brain trauma, unless that personality is embodied in the brain?

Consider, for example, stuff like The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat - I don’t see how cases of radical change of the ability to understand and perceive the world, or to think clearly, can be adequately explained by the notion of the brain-as-radio-transciever-for-the-spirit. How is it that we can forget or fail to understand things at all? Why is it the case that our mental capacity often diminishes with age?

120

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
Lekatt, there’s more than just memory to account for (in fact I’d say it’s one of the less important things your framework of belief needs to explain) - how about cognition itself, personality, emotion and so on - these things - the things that we consider to make us ourselves - can be radically altered by changes to the brain. How can a person’s actual personality appear to change after a brain trauma, unless that personality is embodied in the brain?

Consider, for example, stuff like The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat - I don’t see how cases of radical change of the ability to understand and perceive the world, or to think clearly, can be adequately explained by the notion of the brain-as-radio-transciever-for-the-spirit. How is it that we can forget or fail to understand things at all? Why is it the case that our mental capacity often diminishes with age?
[/QUOTE]

As I said before I am not sure why all this happens and much more. My brother had a stroke and can no longer speak, won’t do exercises either, but his wife says that when he is asleep he can speak very well, talking in his sleep. He also cusses while awake, nothing more, just cuss words. This is pretty common.

I do know that you, your personality, etc., will leave the body when it dies. I have experienced being out of body, and so have millions of other people and they will tell you the same thing I do. Whether anything is stored in the body or not, I don’t know, only that in a hundred years of looking nothing has been found.

Here are some things that might explain some of what happens, either singulary or together.

  1. Brain damage can cause some functions to be distorted or to not work at all. The normal balance of the brain will be off center and produce some weird things.

  2. The spirit world is made up of all levels of beings, some of these beings are not nice, downright mean, and will if they can try to control your body for you. In most cases this is not a problem. You are far stronger than they and just deny them access. But in cases of severe weakness of personality or damage or even being drunk, drugged, these (partial) beings might gain a small amount of control. Usually your spirit guide will keep them away if you can’t. Every one has a spirit guide. Please understand that nothing, or no one can take control of you, only your body if you are absent or unable to prevent it. Robert Monroe when young had the bad habit of falling out of his body when he rested. This frightened him and he would jump back in very quickly. But one day he decided to go with it, and found the spirit world for himself. He wrote books and founded an Institute in Virginia(?). His institute is visited by many scientists and professional people wanting to have an experience. The institute is about 80% successful. In his books he describes how partials try to enter the bodies of drunks. Partials can also account for voices like the “Son of Sam” heard. Not to be confused with the communications of guides or passed relatives. The spirit world is vast.

  3. The death process doesn’t have to be short. It can be only seconds or it can be years. I believe that in gradual loss of mental functions it could be that your spirit is slowly exiting the body. Could take years and involve memory loss as well as functions loss in a very slow way.

Those who read this post remember that I said I didn’t have the answers, just some thoughts about the spirit world.

I have read a lot into multiple personalities, I think this is fascinating. I first thought that the extra personalities might be past lives, but was told it wasn’t. So how can one have so many different “faces”, maybe partials.