This is totally wrong. Most Democrats have no idea what you’re talking about. I had never heard of the possibility that some AA policies might harm Asians until the last few years, on this board. And I think I spend a lot more time discussing policy disagreements than most Democrats.
If you want change on this issue, then work on spreading awareness.
He wants to pit Asians against Blacks and Latinos. That’s why he drags it into nearly every thread he posts on.
This article highlights two instances,
This does not support your argument. Maybe those tests were shitty for a variety of reasons.
It only supports your argument if you insist on interpreting everything in the most Hannity-esque (or maybe Malkin-esque?) way possible to make the Democrats seem as bad as possible.
I wanted some citation or basis for what I quoted which was (paraphrasing) “democrats want Asians to be silent partners”.
I think a lot of Democrats don’t understand the issue because they tune out as soon as you question Democratic orthodoxy on affirmative action.
Asians have tried to distinguish between anti-asian discrimination and affirmative action but the message that we seem to be getting is that anti-Asian discrimination is a necessary by product of affirmative action. Apparently, you can’t fight anti-Asian discrimination without fighting affirmative action.
It is discouraging having t spend so much effort trying to convince otherwise liberal folks that discrimination against asians is not acceptable.
The way current liberal position on AA is inconsistent and leads to undesirable outcomes.
So now a bunch of Asians are fighting back against the anti-Asian discrimination and being called racists for doing so.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/us/affirmative-action-washington-ballot.html
The fight’s already started, we’re just fighting back now and it offends some people that asians would fight back because we’re expected to be passive and just take what we are given.
Asians brought this on themselves by being politically disengaged and it took a direct threat to their children’s earned educational opportunities to awaken them politically.
Asian votes swing. Asian votes swing more than any other demographic. It is at an all time high in favor of Democrats (or more accurately, against Trump) but as soon as Trump leaves office, this may change if there is not a shift in how politicians view the Asian vote.
You don’t have to paraphrase, there is a quoting function and you’ve used it before. I said:
“too many Democrats dont consider this to be discriminatory because its happening to asians. A junior partner in civil rights. Some Democrats would like them to be silent partners.”
It was not clear you were focusing on the part where I said “some Democrats would like them to be silent partners”
To explain that comment, I would say that I think that accusations of racism from the SJW crowd are frequently just attempts to silence dissent. Particularly when these accusations are directed at otherwise left of center groups.
There have been accusations that this resistance to affirmative action are driven by racism. It’s actually not an uncommon accusation, made explicitly or implicitly.
I assume this means you at least think there is some merit to the rest of the statement.
I married into an Asian-American family, with branches in both the Midwest and the Pacific Coast.
From what I’ve witnessed, when people complain affirmative action discriminates against Asian-Americans and/or Latino-Americans and favors African-Americans, they don’t really have the best interests of African-Americans, Asian-Americans, or Latino-Americans at heart.
I hadn’t tuned anyone out. I had never even heard the argument until relatively recently.
I’m sure there are a few high profile Ivy-League defenders out there who insist that these incredibly wealthy and influential schools are totally fair… but why do you believe most Democrats are onboard with this? I’m certainly not. Neither are the vast majority of Democrats and liberals I know.
The GOP wants to pit minorities against each other. By insisting that Democrats (and blacks and Latinos) are against you, you’re doing their work for them. It’s bullshit. Ivy League schools are yet another set of wealthy institutions largely working to benefit the rich and powerful.
What you’re saying about Democrats, liberals, and blacks and Latinos, as big groups, is not based on any facts that you’ve shared. AFAICT, most of these folks have no idea what you’re talking about, and haven’t heard the arguments you’re making at all.
If you really care about this problem, rather than just another way to demonize Democrats/liberals/blacks/Latinos, then work on awareness rather than bomb-throwing.
Why do so may white folks think they know what’s best for asians?
Why does that usually involve asians paying the bill for white liberal guilt?
Why are so many asians protesting affirmative action laws? Do these asians not have the interests of asians at heart?
I actually support affirmative action but it is getting harder and harder to support this nuanced view when liberals accuse anyone that questions liberal orthodoxy on affirmative action as a racist.
For someone who is so against racial discrimination against Asians, you sure seem to say a lot of negative things about White People.
Self awareness is a good thing.
There’s a lot of negative things that white people did and continue to do. Things that white people seem happy to tell asians to pay the moral price for.
It wasn’t asians that decided to enslave a race and practice one of the most vile forms of slavery imaginable.
It wasn’t asians that decided to breed human beings so that they could sell the children.
It wasn’t asians that then decide to rape the women because mixed kids commanded higher prices.
It wasn’t asians that kept discriminating against them with Jim Crow laws.
It wasn’t asians that continued to segregate blacks to poor neighborhoods with redlining.
And it wasn’t blacks that decided that the best way to balance the scales was for white people to take opportunities from asian kids and give it to black kids. This is not the remedy they might have chosen if given a choice, white men chose the paltry remedy.
I’ve seen too many allegedly liberal white folks freak the fuck out when opportunity for their kids were being diminished in favor of black kids to take white woke SJWs seriously.
There are ways to structure affirmative action so that the burden falls primarily on white folks instead of primarily on asians but then affirmative action wouldn’t be quite as popular.
10 years ago I was firmly in favor of affirmative action. You can’t be a racial minority of any kind in this country and not realize how racist it is, particularly against blacks. Asians generally would not compare the discrimination that asians have experienced with the discrimination against blacks like some white minority groups have done.
But as these debates and conversations have developed on this board, it is clear to me that affirmative action as it is practiced today in college admissions and education generally is discriminatory towards asians and it is also clear to me that a LOT of liberal white folks seem to be OK with that.
It is clear to me that you’re convinced this is so by something other than actual facts and data. Is it really so hard for you to believe that most liberals just haven’t heard this argument about how college admissions might harm Asians? I hadn’t until quite recently.
This is a common debate tactic that involves making multiple assertions, including one vague, unsupported accusation, and when someone only comments on the one argument that was thrown out with absolutely no justification, it’s taken as tacit approval of the rest. It’s a line of reasoning generally that also has no merit and only seeks to imply consensus when none is there.
I don’t think iiiandyiii was accusing you of racism or dismissing your arguments because of race, I couldn’t read all of your links because there were paywalls on most of them, but from the ones I read there was no accusation there, there was simply a defense of affirmative action. Today some posters have actually made dismissive comments towards you which I do think is shameful on their part.
As to the rest of the argument, my main thrust is that there is no intent from the Democrats to be unfair to white people, and that the party isn’t just playing a 0 sum game of using racism accusations as a cudgel, and I still don’t think this has been refuted. When it comes to Asians not being treated fairly by the education system - thus far there has been nothing I can see that people in Washington can do anything about. The lawsuit against Harvard was thrown out and AFAIK no lawsuit similar lawsuit has been successful. All that has been shown is a lot of implicit biases in colleges - nothing has been traced to affirmative action except speculation.
There is of course a lot of implicit bias involved in cases involving racism against Black or Latino people, but there have actually been policy avenues to attempt to remedy the problems, and frankly attempts to change societal problems that arise because of many individual people having implicit bias very rarely work regardless of race. This is absolutely not a reason not to try but it means that the existence of structural problems due to implicit bias is not a reason to dismiss other attempts to reduce analogous structural problems.
When I talk about all the people who are OK with the discrimination, I am talking about all the folks who chime in on the Harvard lawsuit and defend the anti-Asian discrimination there.
When I talk about all the people who are OK with the discrimination, I am talking about all the folks who chime in on Bill DeBlasio’s attempts to racially balance the magnet schools in NYC dismissing Asian concerns as either a necessary evil or selfishness/racism on the part of Asians.
The anti-asian discrimination has been around for decades but it took the Harvard lawsuit to really crystallize how anti-asian the arguments in favor of affirmative action (as it exists today) are.
I’m unaware of any more than a minuscule minority of Democrats and liberals who have done this.
This, however, seems to be a dispute about De Blasio’s views on a certain test – and maybe that test sucks. I don’t know, but getting rid of a specific test isn’t necessarily a sign of anti-Asian bias. Maybe there really are problems with that test.
I would encourage you to try and educate others about this rather than just casting blanket aspersions on Democrats, liberals, black people and Hispanic people.
If you have an argument, please make it. Right now all you seem to be saying is “well prove it” after I provided links
I made the following statement. All of them related:
“That’s the problem, too many Democrats dont consider this to be discriminatory because its happening to asians. A junior partner in civil rights. Some Democrats would like them to be silent partners.”
Are you saying that Democrats don’t view discrimination against asians differently than discrimination against blacks and hispanics?
Not iiandyii. But there are definitely accusations of racism when I say that asians deserve to be admitted over less qualified blacks and hispanics. The accusations of racism are often accompanied by racist anti-asian tropes accusing asians of being selfish or taking advantage of wealth and white proximity.
Perhaps these links will work better:
This link implies that the Asians are selfish and says it’s ironic that asians are making accusations of racism (isn’t that implying racism on the part of the asians making the acusations of racism?).
Counter to stereotypes, Asians have the highest poverty rate in NYC
They have higher rates of poverty than blacks or hispanics.
Here are statements of policy from some of NYC’s Democratic politicians:
The argument of asian protesters in NYC is basically that the city does a crappy job from K-8 and their efforts at racial justice would be far better served trying to support the k-8 program so more black and Hispanic kids get admitted on their own merit rather than being elevated over more deserving Asian kids based on the color of their skin.
It’s not like the college admissions where they cannot control how high schools are run. The NYC DOE controls the hole pipeline leading up to the high school exam. They cannot claim that the SHSAT is racist so they say that testing itself is racist. They are embarrassed by the racial balance of the magnet schools so they make veiled accusations of racism and reinforce racist tropes against Asians in order to try and silence dissent. Right now every black an hispanic kid with a Stuyvesant diploma has unimpeachable nerd cred when they go to college.
No it’s just seen as a necessary side effect of their intent to be more fair to other races. All races are equal, some races are more equal than others.
There have been veiled accusations of racism by Democrats (see DeBLasio and Carranza) and it has been used as cudgel to silence dissent. Or at least that seems to have been the intent.
The people making the link between anti-asian discrimination and affirmative action are liberals. Liberals are the ones making the argument that protesting anti-Asian discrimination is protesting AA. If AA depends on discrimination against one minority group for the benefit of another, then it cannot be called justice.
Does your definition of right and wrong hinge on whether there has been success in the courts?
You say implicit, I think it’s a pretty deliberate attempt at racial balancing.
California, Washington, Michigan, Nebraska, Arizona, Oklahoma, Florida, Texas and Georgia all managed to alleviate much of this bias by banning affirmative action and scrubbing identifying information from the applications. It is becoming clear that affirmative action as it is practiced today is discriminatory (implicitly or explicitly) against asians.
The test in question in the Harvard lawsuit is the SATs.
The test in question in the Stuyvesant case is the SHSAT. Nobody has found anything wrong with the test and it’s not for a lack of trying.
It’s the same test used by TJHSST (that’s how I know about it). A few years ago, the county decided that TJHSST needed more blacks and hisanics so they reduced the importance of the test and started adding some holistic factors. The school got richer, whiter and dumber. The population of blacks and Hispanics didn’t budge. It turns out that holistic criteria absent explicit racial preferences leads to advantages for those with money and white privilege and explicit racial preferences were not politically viable.
They quietly reverted back to using the SHSAT as a primary determinant and they are now simply resigned to having a school that is going to be over 70% asian.
The timing of all these diversity initiatives are interesting. It tends to occur as institutions become minority white and majority asian.
Calling it like it is. If you think this reflects poorly on Democrats, perhaps Democrats should change. It isn’t Republicans defending Harvard’s discriminatory admissions. It isn’t Republicans supporting Bill DeBlasio’s plans.
Says you, but I have no way of knowing whether that’s true or not.
To be clear, it’s very possible that the test is fine and getting rid of it is just a lazy way to get the ratio of minorities that De Blasio or some other jackass wants. And I think your grievance against some universities appears reasonable, with solid arguments behind it (AFAICT).
But your grievance isn’t with Democrats as a group, or blacks/Hispanics as a group. It’s with certain wealthy and powerful institutions, who are doing far, far more to harm Asians (and others) than Democrats and black and Hispanic folks.
I don’t think any of your arguments reflect poorly about Democrats as a group, since none of the blame for the policies you find problematic have anything to do with Democrats as a group.
It isn’t Democrats, either, as a group. It’s a tiny group of people who are generally wealthy, influential, and white.