Can Democrats perform better with white voters?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

I’m unaware of any more than a minuscule minority of Democrats and liberals who have done this.

I have provided links to Democrats doing this and you have certainly seen liberals on this board doing this. It is such a common Democratic kneejerk reaction that it is fair to say that it is THE Democratic kneejerk reaction to this subject. The instinct to defend AA regardless of it’s costs can be fairly characterized as a common Democratic/liberal reaction.

This, however, seems to be a dispute about De Blasio’s views on a certain test – and maybe that test sucks. I don’t know, but getting rid of a specific test isn’t necessarily a sign of anti-Asian bias. Maybe there really are problems with that test.

Nobody has identified any problems with the test (and it’s not for a lack of trying). The only problem with the test is that asians do well on it and blacks and hispanics don’t do well on it. (this is an example of the instinct to defend apparent discrimination, why the heck would you assume there might be something wrong with the test when there is no mention of a flaw with the test?)

The language coming from city hall, the NYC DOE and their supporters has been pretty anti-asian. It’s not like they’re calling us fucking greedy chinks, but they have been accusing the poorest race group in NYC of buying their way into these schools with test prep, making subtle accusations of cheating, making accusations of racial selfishness, telling asians that they owe a racial debt to blacks and hispanics because they fought for our rights, implying that Asian kids are fungible and uninteresting.

I would encourage you to try and educate others about this rather than just casting blanket aspersions on Democrats, liberals, black people and Hispanic people.

I don’t have your patience. I can’t soothingly explain to bigots how their bigotry is manifesting itself as anti-asian discrimination. I understand that they are not hateful racists but the end effect is similar.

Democrats are pretty consistent on this issue. Particularly liberal Democrats. Specifically white liberal Democrats. They see nothing wrong with robbing peter to pay paul. All they see is their debt to paul.

Blacks and Hispanics are no worse than the average Democrat AFAICT, I don’t think I have been saying otherwise. There are also plenty of asians who think that discrimination against asians is acceptable in the interests of racial justice.

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I have provided links to Democrats doing this and you have certainly seen liberals on this board doing this. It is such a common Democratic kneejerk reaction that it is fair to say that it is THE Democratic kneejerk reaction to this subject. The instinct to defend AA regardless of it’s costs can be fairly characterized as a common Democratic/liberal reaction.

Nobody has identified any problems with the test (and it’s not for a lack of trying). The only problem with the test is that asians do well on it and blacks and hispanics don’t do well on it. (this is an example of the instinct to defend apparent discrimination, why the heck would you assume there might be something wrong with the test when there is no mention of a flaw with the test?)

The language coming from city hall, the NYC DOE and their supporters has been pretty anti-asian. It’s not like they’re calling us fucking greedy chinks, but they have been accusing the poorest race group in NYC of buying their way into these schools with test prep, making subtle accusations of cheating, making accusations of racial selfishness, telling asians that they owe a racial debt to blacks and hispanics because they fought for our rights, implying that Asian kids are fungible and uninteresting.

I don’t have your patience. I can’t soothingly explain to bigots how their bigotry is manifesting itself as anti-asian discrimination. I understand that they are not hateful racists but the end effect is similar.

Democrats are pretty consistent on this issue. Particularly liberal Democrats. Specifically white liberal Democrats. They see nothing wrong with robbing peter to pay paul. All they see is their debt to paul.

Blacks and Hispanics are no worse than the average Democrat AFAICT, I don’t think I have been saying otherwise. There are also plenty of asians who think that discrimination against asians is acceptable in the interests of racial justice.

Your characterization of Democrats as a group continues to be cite-free (citing a tiny number of individual Democrats has nothing to do with Democrats as a group) and continues to have nothing to do with my understanding of reality and having interacted with thousands of Democrats over the last 20-30 years and countless discussions about Affirmative Action.

If you’re going to continue to characterize Democrats as a group this way, then there’s not much point to further discussion. You might be making a good argument about Harvard, but you’re providing no cites and no backing other than your feelings for the blanket aspersions you’re casting upon Democrats as a group. There’s no widespread belief among Democrats that any particular AA policy being bad for Asians is acceptable.

[Little_Nemo]

@Damuri_Ajashi

If you have an argument, please make it.

Okay, here’s mine.

All discrimination is wrong. People should only be judged on the basis of their individual abilities and actions not on some imagined group standard.

Society should be trying to eliminate discrimination. Individuals should be supporting that effort. The end goal should be zero discrimination.

As to your particular concern, I’m sure there is discrimination against Asians in American society. It’s wrong and it should be eliminated.

But we do not have infinite resources in the struggle against discrimination. So we should set priorities and work on solving the biggest problems first before we move on to smaller problems.

There is a vastly greater amount of discrimination directed against black people in America than there is against Asians in America. So right now we should be directing more efforts against discrimination against black people.

[iiandyiiii]

@Little_Nemo

Okay, here’s mine.

All discrimination is wrong. People should only be judged on the basis of their individual abilities and actions not on some imagined group standard.

Society should be trying to eliminate discrimination. Individuals should be supporting that effort. The end goal should be zero discrimination.

As to your particular concern, I’m sure there is discrimination against Asians in American society. It’s wrong and it should be eliminated.

But we do not have infinite resources in the struggle against discrimination. So we should set priorities and work on solving the biggest problems first before we move on to smaller problems.

There is a vastly greater amount of discrimination directed against black people in America than there is against Asians in America. So right now we should be directing more efforts against discrimination against black people.

I’ll add to this – if any particular policy is inadvertently harming Asian Americans, that is a bad thing and the policy should be reconsidered and reevaluated. I don’t believe that harming Asians is necessary to accomplish the beneficial and necessary things that AA is here for.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

Says you, but I have no way of knowing whether that’s true or not.

This is the kneejerk reaction I am talking about. With absolutely no evidence that a test is anything but fair and objective, your immediate reaction is that maybe there is something wrong with the test. Even the folks that want to get rid of the test can’t identify anything wrong with the test itself. Modern psychometricians know how to make a test fair.

To be clear, it’s very possible that the test is fine and getting rid of it is just a lazy way to get the ratio of minorities that De Blasio or some other jackass wants.

It’s not just possible, it is unrefuted fact. NOONE on the other side of the argument is claiming what you are claiming. This is the sort of Democratic/liberal bias that I am talking about. You are advancing arguments that even DeBlasio isn’t making.

And I think your grievance against some universities appears reasonable, with solid arguments behind it (AFAICT).

But your grievance isn’t with Democrats as a group, or blacks/Hispanics as a group. It’s with certain wealthy and powerful institutions, who are doing far, far more to harm Asians (and others) than Democrats and black and Hispanic folks.

Generally speaking, Democrats and liberals as a group have conflated affirmative action and anti-Asian discrimination. That is the paradigm that they have created in order to preserve the current form of affirmative action, AA=anti-Asian discrimination.

“Certain wealthy institutions”? You mean like Harvard? The same Harvard that woke SJW liberals are falling over themselves to defend?

I don’t think any of your arguments reflect poorly about Democrats as a group, since none of the blame for the policies you find problematic have anything to do with Democrats as a group.

No more than white supremacy has anything to do with Republicans as a group.

It isn’t Democrats, either, as a group. It’s a tiny group of people who are generally wealthy, influential, and white.

DeBlasio isn’t that wealthy, Carranza isn’t white. I can link about a hundred articles from liberal authors defending anti-Asian discrimination in college admissions. Yes many of them are wealthy and white but many of them are not. What they all have in common is that they are liberals.

Now to be fair, there are a ton of liberals that have a problem with this anti-Asian discrimination. At first most of them were themselves asian and could see the discrimination more clearly. Plenty of liberals are uncomfortable with the antiasian discrimination but the woke SJWs tend to be pretty unapologetic about it.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

Your characterization of Democrats as a group continues to be cite-free (citing a tiny number of individual Democrats has nothing to do with Democrats as a group) and continues to have nothing to do with my understanding of reality and having interacted with thousands of Democrats over the last 20-30 years and countless discussions about Affirmative Action.

How many cites do you need? It most of the NYC city council. I can cite the attempts to overturn prop 209 in California, the recent attempt to overturn prohibitions against race based admissions in Washington state, etc. These are all Democratic proposals and they are all opposed by asian groups and the criticism leveled against asians in these cases all sound the same. Asians are racist, greedy, selfish, not team players, privileged, etc.

If you’re going to continue to characterize Democrats as a group this way, then there’s not much point to further discussion. You might be making a good argument about Harvard, but you’re providing no cites and no backing other than your feelings for the blanket aspersions you’re casting upon Democrats as a group. There’s no widespread belief among Democrats that any particular AA policy being bad for Asians is acceptable.

Of course there is. Harvard is a good example of Democrats and liberals lining up on the side of antiasian discrimination. They may have convinced themselves that no such discrimination exists but I think that takes either willful or actual ignorance. Wilful ignorance is bad enough but actual ignorance means you don’t take the asian claims seriously enough to take a close look.

I’ve given a cite to the Democratic mayor of the largest city in the country and the chancellor of the largest school system in the country exercising anti-Asian discrimination in order to achieve what they view as racial justice.

The initial criticism and arguments on this board regarding the Harvard lawsuit demonstrates the default positions of liberals on this issue. First there is denial that there is a problem then when confronted with convincing evidence, they deny that its actually racism and it might be something else… like a shitty test

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

This is the kneejerk reaction I am talking about. With absolutely no evidence that a test is anything but fair and objective, your immediate reaction is that maybe there is something wrong with the test. Even the folks that want to get rid of the test can’t identify anything wrong with the test itself. Modern psychometricians know how to make a test fair.

It’s not just possible, it is unrefuted fact. NOONE on the other side of the argument is claiming what you are claiming. This is the sort of Democratic/liberal bias that I am talking about. You are advancing arguments that even DeBlasio isn’t making.

I have not advanced any argument, and I had no reaction to your argument on this specific test. I neither believe nor disbelieve it – I have no information on it.

Generally speaking, Democrats and liberals as a group have conflated affirmative action and anti-Asian discrimination. That is the paradigm that they have created in order to preserve the current form of affirmative action, AA=anti-Asian discrimination.

This is entirely false. Democrats and liberals as a group have not done this. I’ve never even heard of this, and I’m rather plugged into Democratic and liberal circles, both “inside the beltway” and outside.

“Certain wealthy institutions”? You mean like Harvard? The same Harvard that woke SJW liberals are falling over themselves to defend?

What “woke SJW liberals”? It’s another wealthy and powerful institution that largely serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful. This is nonsense.

No more than white supremacy has anything to do with Republicans as a group.

You’re joking about this, right? You haven’t offered any cites tying the party as a group to your assertions about the party. Do you seriously believe that there are no facts that clearly link the Republican party of the last several decades to toleration or even support of white supremacism?

DeBlasio isn’t that wealthy, Carranza isn’t white. I can link about a hundred articles from liberal authors defending anti-Asian discrimination in college admissions. Yes many of them are wealthy and white but many of them are not. What they all have in common is that they are liberals.

This still says nothing about Democrats and liberals as a group.

Now to be fair, there are a ton of liberals that have a problem with this anti-Asian discrimination. At first most of them were themselves asian and could see the discrimination more clearly. Plenty of liberals are uncomfortable with the antiasian discrimination but the woke SJWs tend to be pretty unapologetic about it.

Perhaps your own feelings about “woke SJWs” (not sure whether I qualify or not) are distorting your views on this. I think I’m pretty plugged into “woke SJW” circles and I have never heard any defense of anti-Asian discrimination. All the “woke SJW” crowd I know are horrified (if not surprised, considering American history) by any discrimination against minorities, including against Asians.

You haven’t presented any support for the aspersions you cast upon Democrats, liberals, or “woke SJWs” as groups. Why is it so important to you that these people must be evil on this issue? Is it really that hard for you to consider that maybe these folks are largely just unaware of it?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Little_Nemo

Okay, here’s mine.

All discrimination is wrong. People should only be judged on the basis of their individual abilities and actions not on some imagined group standard.

Society should be trying to eliminate discrimination. Individuals should be supporting that effort. The end goal should be zero discrimination.

As to your particular concern, I’m sure there is discrimination against Asians in American society. It’s wrong and it should be eliminated.

But we do not have infinite resources in the struggle against discrimination. So we should set priorities and work on solving the biggest problems first before we move on to smaller problems.

There is a vastly greater amount of discrimination directed against black people in America than there is against Asians in America. So right now we should be directing more efforts against discrimination against black people.

This sounds a lot like a hierarchy of race. The oppression Olympics.

But so be it.

Asians might necessarily have to take a junior partner position to blacks in pursuit of racial justice (never mind that the beneficiary of that racial justice tends to rarely be the descendants of slaves).

I am not even averse to quotas for the descendants of slaves but how have hispanics suffered disproportionately to asians that is justifies discriminating against asians to provide preferences for hispanics?

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

How many cites do you need? It most of the NYC city council.

Okay, let’s see the anti-Asian sentiments from “most of the NYC city council”.

I can cite the attempts to overturn prop 209 in California, the recent attempt to overturn prohibitions against race based admissions in Washington state, etc. These are all Democratic proposals and they are all opposed by asian groups and the criticism leveled against asians in these cases all sound the same. Asians are racist, greedy, selfish, not team players, privileged, etc.

Okay, I’d like to see quotes from Democratic elected officials that “Asians are racist, greedy, selfish, not team players, privileged, etc.”

If there really is an anti-Asian streak among my party, I want to see it in detail. You’ve provided lots of cites, and I haven’t read every word of every one of them (though I have looked at all of them), so it’s possible I missed it. But please point me in the right direction.

Of course there is. Harvard is a good example of Democrats and liberals lining up on the side of antiasian discrimination. They may have convinced themselves that no such discrimination exists but I think that takes either willful or actual ignorance. Wilful ignorance is bad enough but actual ignorance means you don’t take the asian claims seriously enough to take a close look.

Let’s see evidence that “Democrats and liberals” as a group are “lining up” in defense of Harvard’s admissions policies.

I’ve given a cite to the Democratic mayor of the largest city in the country and the chancellor of the largest school system in the country exercising anti-Asian discrimination in order to achieve what they view as racial justice.

You’ve given cites that they oppose a specific test, but let’s see a cite, specifically, that they are “exercising anti-Asian discrimination”. Not some guy’s opinion that getting rid of some test is discriminating against Asians (me writing an opinion that “this test discriminates against black folks” is not evidence that the test discriminates against black folks) – but actual evidence of “anti-Asian discrimination”.

The initial criticism and arguments on this board regarding the Harvard lawsuit demonstrates the default positions of liberals on this issue. First there is denial that there is a problem then when confronted with convincing evidence, they deny that its actually racism and it might be something else… like a shitty test

Let’s see cites for all of this. I’ve said “maybe it’s a shitty test”, but I’ll also say “maybe it’s the best test in the universe and getting rid of it is worse than the Holocaust”, so that should balance that part out.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

I’ll add to this – if any particular policy is inadvertently harming Asian Americans, that is a bad thing and the policy should be reconsidered and reevaluated. I don’t believe that harming Asians is necessary to accomplish the beneficial and necessary things that AA is here for.

I’ve been saying this for over a decade:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=386210&highlight=affirmative+action

But the current crop of woke SJW liberals that are defending Harvard, DeBlasio and the current incarnations of Affirmative Action seem to disagree. And I am coming around to their way of thinking. Affirmative Action may indeed by incompatible with fairness to asians. And if your remedy for injustice to one group is to impose injustice on another politically weaker group, then that is less than a zero sum game, it is the perpetuation and reinforcement of power based racism. What happens next? Asians get political power and use it to screw over some other politically weaker group?

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

This sounds a lot like a hierarchy of race. The oppression Olympics.

But so be it.

Asians might necessarily have to take a junior partner position to blacks in pursuit of racial justice (never mind that the beneficiary of that racial justice tends to rarely be the descendants of slaves).

I am not even averse to quotas for the descendants of slaves but how have hispanics suffered disproportionately to asians that is justifies discriminating against asians to provide preferences for hispanics?

This doesn’t actually dispute anything he said. You’re attacking a straw man.

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

But the current crop of woke SJW liberals that are defending Harvard, DeBlasio and the current incarnations of Affirmative Action seem to disagree. And I am coming around to their way of thinking. Affirmative Action may indeed by incompatible with fairness to asians. And if your remedy for injustice to one group is to impose injustice on another politically weaker group, then that is less than a zero sum game, it is the perpetuation and reinforcement of power based racism. What happens next? Asians get political power and use it to screw over some other politically weaker group?

Then I stand with you against these (probably fantastical and derived from your own personal biases, and IIRC by your posts, hatred) “woke SJWs”. Let’s stop these evil (and probably fictional) “woke SJWs” together!

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

I have not advanced any argument, and I had no reaction to your argument on this specific test. I neither believe nor disbelieve it – I have no information on it.

And you don’t see the problem with that? You are questioning the test in a way that even the critics of the test are not. You are looking for excuses for this discriminatory behavior.

This is entirely false. Democrats and liberals as a group have not done this. I’ve never even heard of this, and I’m rather plugged into Democratic and liberal circles, both “inside the beltway” and outside.

I am also fairly plugged into Democratic and liberal circles. Mostly inside the beltway. They see the Harvard lawsuit, which is a lawsuit against anti-asian discrimination and they have characterized it as or accepted the characterization as an assault on affirmative action.

What “woke SJW liberals”? It’s another wealthy and powerful institution that largely serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful. This is nonsense.

Are you seriously not aware that woke SJW liberals see the Harvard lawsuit as an attack on affirmative action rather than an attack on anti-asian discrimination? In fact the anti-asian discrimination is frequently entirely lost on them.

You’re joking about this, right? You haven’t offered any cites tying the party as a group to your assertions about the party. Do you seriously believe that there are no facts that clearly link the Republican party of the last several decades to toleration or even support of white supremacism?

You seriously believe that there are no facts that just as clearly link the Democratic party to tolerance or even support of affirmative action, even at the expense of anti-asian discrimination?

I offered a cite where the majority of the NYC Council, the NYC mayor and the NYC chancellor (all Democrats) have done so. These aren’t random internet liberals, these are elected politicians.

This still says nothing about Democrats and liberals as a group.

Seriously, how many Democratic politicians do I have to cite? Why isn’t the mayor of the largest city and the chancellor of the largest school system enough?

Perhaps your own feelings about “woke SJWs” (not sure whether I qualify or not) are distorting your views on this. I think I’m pretty plugged into “woke SJW” circles and I have never heard any defense of anti-Asian discrimination. All the “woke SJW” crowd I know are horrified (if not surprised, considering American history) by any discrimination against minorities, including against Asians.

The ones that are accusing asians of racism for protesting (anti-asian discrimination) tend to be woke SJWs. See pretty much any article about the Harvard lawsuit.

You haven’t presented any support for the aspersions you cast upon Democrats, liberals, or “woke SJWs” as groups.

So what were the links to DeBlasio and Carranza? It may not be convincing to you but isn’t that at least SOME support?

Why is it so important to you that these people must be evil on this issue? Is it really that hard for you to consider that maybe these folks are largely just unaware of it?

I don’t think everyone on the other side of the argument is evil.
I think it is entirely possible for someone to simply adopt the party line on affirmative action and mindlessly defend that position. I think kneejerk reactions are common across the spectrum.
But the aggressive woke SJW crowd is probably evil. They are effectively fascists trying to win debates with accusations of racism, sexism, etc.

Of course, the response from the woke SJW crowd is not resounding support for anti-asian discrimination. They sidestep the issue entirely and say asians are focusing on the wrong thing and that the REAL issue is some other thing and that we’re racist for not adequately focusing on that other thing. They claim that asians are being hoodwinked into fighting against their own interests when they fight against discrimination. Gaslighting of the highest order.

I’m sure that if they were presented with A with anti-asian discrimination versus equally effective AA without the anti-asian discrimination, they would choose the latter but they seem ready to defend the former.

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

And you don’t see the problem with that? You are questioning the test in a way that even the critics of the test are not. You are looking for excuses for this discriminatory behavior.

I am also fairly plugged into Democratic and liberal circles. Mostly inside the beltway. They see the Harvard lawsuit, which is a lawsuit against anti-asian discrimination and they have characterized it as or accepted the characterization as an assault on affirmative action.

Are you seriously not aware that woke SJW liberals see the Harvard lawsuit as an attack on affirmative action rather than an attack on anti-asian discrimination? In fact the anti-asian discrimination is frequently entirely lost on them.

You seriously believe that there are no facts that just as clearly link the Democratic party to tolerance or even support of affirmative action, even at the expense of anti-asian discrimination?

I offered a cite where the majority of the NYC Council, the NYC mayor and the NYC chancellor (all Democrats) have done so. These aren’t random internet liberals, these are elected politicians.

Seriously, how many Democratic politicians do I have to cite? Why isn’t the mayor of the largest city and the chancellor of the largest school system enough?

The ones that are accusing asians of racism for protesting (anti-asian discrimination) tend to be woke SJWs. See pretty much any article about the Harvard lawsuit.

So what were the links to DeBlasio and Carranza? It may not be convincing to you but isn’t that at least SOME support?

I don’t think everyone on the other side of the argument is evil.

I think it is entirely possible for someone to simply adopt the party line on affirmative action and mindlessly defend that position. I think kneejerk reactions are common across the spectrum.

But the aggressive woke SJW crowd is probably evil. They are effectively fascists trying to win debates with accusations of racism, sexism, etc.

Of course, the response from the woke SJW crowd is not resounding support for anti-asian discrimination. They sidestep the issue entirely and say asians are focusing on the wrong thing and that the REAL issue is some other thing and that we’re racist for not adequately focusing on that other thing. They claim that asians are being hoodwinked into fighting against their own interests when they fight against discrimination. Gaslighting of the highest order.

I’m sure that if they were presented with A with anti-asian discrimination versus equally effective AA without the anti-asian discrimination, they would choose the latter but they seem ready to defend the former.

Most of this appears to have little connection with reality as I’m aware of it, and seems highly focused on your personal hatred of “woke SJWs”, and thus there doesn’t seem to be any more point to trying to discuss this with you. Best wishes to you and your family.

EDIT: To be clear, I have no problem with discussing possible anti Asian discrimination. But your posts are mostly just feelings-based rants and hatred against liberals and “woke SJWs”, and I have no interested in that.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

Okay, let’s see the anti-Asian sentiments from “most of the NYC city council”.

They initially supported the mayor. Many have since changed their tune when asians finally stopped being so politically apathetic.

Okay, I’d like to see quotes from Democratic elected officials that “Asians are racist, greedy, selfish, not team players, privileged, etc.”

Carranza is not elected but he has implicitly or explicitly said all these things.

DeBlasio’s spokesperson has also said some of these things.

If there really is an anti-Asian streak among my party, I want to see it in detail.

It’s not so much an anti-asian streak so much as it is hierarchy of races. All races are equal but some races are more equal than others.

What was YOUR initial reaction to the Harvard lawsuit and the allegations of anti-asian discrimination? Were you inclined to believe the asians or inclined to find some reason why the asians were wrong because what they were saying might threaten preferences for other minority races? Or was it something else?

We don’t have bunch of Democrats saying “fuck the chinks” but it seems clear that asian are second class citizens in the Democratic hierarchy compared to other minorities that don’t have a profoundly different history of discrimination than asians e.g. hispanics.

You’ve provided lots of cites, and I haven’t read every word of every one of them (though I have looked at all of them), so it’s possible I missed it. But please point me in the right direction.

For what premise would you like a pinpoint cite? Frankly, I m pretty tired of providing cites for stuff. If you want to continue to believe that folks on your side are pre as the driven snow, I don’t think anything I provide is going to be seen as anything more than an exception to the rule. You’ve basically admitted as much.

Let’s see evidence that “Democrats and liberals” as a group are “lining up” in defense of Harvard’s admissions policies.

Let me amend that to say they used to line up in Harvard’s (and affirmative action’s) defense. But you don’t even have to leave this website to see this defense of Harvard and criticism of asians. I suspect if you went back to the threads where you were illuminated on the issue, you will find a lot of folks who took that attitude (at least at first).

It’s gotten easier since the revelations about: Harvard’s personal rating, the differences in SAT cutoffs for recruiting different races, the scandal with the Singer college admissions bribery scandal. But for folks who are convinced that asian rights jeopardize affirmative action, they still find some way to justify the discrimination.

But it’s troubling that these sort of allegations from any other minority group would be immediately believed but asians have to make a fairly strong case to be believed.

Here is the list of documents including the amicus briefs
you will note which side the liberal organizations take
https://admissionscase.harvard.edu/supporting-documents

You’ve given cites that they oppose a specific test, but let’s see a cite, specifically, that they are “exercising anti-Asian discrimination”. Not some guy’s opinion that getting rid of some test is discriminating against Asians (me writing an opinion that “this test discriminates against black folks” is not evidence that the test discriminates against black folks) – but actual evidence of “anti-Asian discrimination”.

Would a statement saying that asians act like they own those seats at magnet schools suffice?

Let’s see cites for all of this. I’ve said “maybe it’s a shitty test”, but I’ll also say “maybe it’s the best test in the universe and getting rid of it is worse than the Holocaust”, so that should balance that part out.

Nah. You are asking me to rebut specious arguments. I think the burden is on you to provide proof that the test is no good. I think the burden is on you to show that statements made by Democrats are not reflective of what other Democrats might think considering the effects of the policies they support.

For example, if Republicans in general supported a very restrictive immigration policy along our southern border and a few Republicans said some racist shit about hispanics in reference to that restrictive immigration policy, would you insist on more examples of Republican racism before you started thinking maybe the Republican immigration policy was racist? But when it comes to racism against asians coming from your party…

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

They initially supported the mayor. Many have since changed their tune when asians finally stopped being so politically apathetic.

So Asians spoke out and Democrats listened? That doesn’t sound like anti Asian sentiment to me.

Carranza is not elected but he has implicitly or explicitly said all these things.

DeBlasio’s spokesperson has also said some of these things.

Okay. What specifically did they say?

It’s not so much an anti-asian streak so much as it is hierarchy of races. All races are equal but some races are more equal than others.

What was YOUR initial reaction to the Harvard lawsuit and the allegations of anti-asian discrimination? Were you inclined to believe the asians or inclined to find some reason why the asians were wrong because what they were saying might threaten preferences for other minority races? Or was it something else?

I first heard about it in the last year or two, on this board. I listened to the arguments, did a bit of reading, and it sounds to me like it’s a reasonable complaint. And that Harvard is yet another wealthy and powerful institution that largely serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful. I still am unaware of any significant number of Democrats that support Harvard, and you haven’t provided a cite to support your criticism of Democrats as a group regarding Harvard.

We don’t have bunch of Democrats saying “fuck the chinks” but it seems clear that asian are second class citizens in the Democratic hierarchy compared to other minorities that don’t have a profoundly different history of discrimination than asians e.g. hispanics.

You haven’t supported this argument, and it seems just to be based on your feelings.

For what premise would you like a pinpoint cite? Frankly, I m pretty tired of providing cites for stuff. If you want to continue to believe that folks on your side are pre as the driven snow, I don’t think anything I provide is going to be seen as anything more than an exception to the rule. You’ve basically admitted as much.

A cite for your characterization of Democrats as a group could be polling on particular cases of anti Asian discrimination, for example. Do you have polls that suggest that Democrats, as a group, think Asians should be second class citizens, or similar?

Let me amend that to say they used to line up in Harvard’s (and affirmative action’s) defense. But you don’t even have to leave this website to see this defense of Harvard and criticism of asians. I suspect if you went back to the threads where you were illuminated on the issue, you will find a lot of folks who took that attitude (at least at first).

It’s gotten easier since the revelations about: Harvard’s personal rating, the differences in SAT cutoffs for recruiting different races, the scandal with the Singer college admissions bribery scandal. But for folks who are convinced that asian rights jeopardize affirmative action, they still find some way to justify the discrimination.

But it’s troubling that these sort of allegations from any other minority group would be immediately believed but asians have to make a fairly strong case to be believed.

Here is the list of documents including the amicus briefs

you will note which side the liberal organizations take

https://admissionscase.harvard.edu/supporting-documents

So Democrats listened to the complaints of Asians, looked at the data, and changed their views?

Would a statement saying that asians act like they own those seats at magnet schools suffice?

Actually, yes.

Nah. You are asking me to rebut specious arguments. I think the burden is on you to provide proof that the test is no good.

I haven’t said that the test is no good (maybe it is, maybe it isn’t). I have no information on the test.

I think the burden is on you to show that statements made by Democrats are not reflective of what other Democrats might think considering the effects of the policies they support.

If any senior Democratic official has publicly made blanket negative characterizations of Asians without being strongly criticized by other Democrats, I would certainly agree with you. Has that occurred?

For example, if Republicans in general supported a very restrictive immigration policy along our southern border and a few Republicans said some racist shit about hispanics in reference to that restrictive immigration policy, would you insist on more examples of Republican racism before you started thinking maybe the Republican immigration policy was racist? But when it comes to racism against asians coming from your party…

You haven’t provided anything remotely comparable to the myriad of racist, bigoted, and similar statements from prominent Republicans.

[Little_Nemo]

@Damuri_Ajashi

This sounds a lot like a hierarchy of race. The oppression Olympics.

It’s a hierarchy in the same sense that a person who goes to the ER with a heart attack will get treated before a person who goes there with a toothache.

[str8cashhomie]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Chancellor Carranza to desegregation plan foes: You don’t own these classrooms – New York Daily News

Ok I have to admit this is a damning example of what you’re talking about:

@NY Daily News

“I just don’t buy into the narrative that any one ethnic group owns admission to these schools,” he [Carranza] said.

“We are systematically excluding students in the most diverse city in the world from opportunities,” the chancellor added. “In this particular case, specialized schools. I think we have a moral obligation.”

@Damuri Ajashi

It’s not like the college admissions where they cannot control how high schools are run. The NYC DOE controls the hole pipeline leading up to the high school exam. They cannot claim that the SHSAT is racist so they say that testing itself is racist. They are embarrassed by the racial balance of the magnet schools so they make veiled accusations of racism and reinforce racist tropes against Asians in order to try and silence dissent. Right now every black an hispanic kid with a Stuyvesant diploma has unimpeachable nerd cred when they go to college.

No it’s just seen as a necessary side effect of their intent to be more fair to other races. All races are equal, some races are more equal than others.

So I have to give you that Carranza’s comments, which I believe he never apologized for (?), definitely show that he (and presumably the Deblasio admin which hasn’t walked it back or come out against his remarks either) see it as an “us or them” zero-sum situation and a policy that hurts Asian students as a “necessary side effect” as you say.

As for the first paragraph, the SHSAT was introduced in the first place when elite NYC schools were predominantly white, in an attempt to preserve the (then predominantly white) racial makeup of the schools in response to integration efforts at the time: The fraught racial politics of entrance exams for elite high schools - Vox

@Damuri Ajashi

The people making the link between anti-asian discrimination and affirmative action are liberals. Liberals are the ones making the argument that protesting anti-Asian discrimination is protesting AA. If AA depends on discrimination against one minority group for the benefit of another, then it cannot be called justice.

Does your definition of right and wrong hinge on whether there has been success in the courts?
You say implicit, I think it’s a pretty deliberate attempt at racial balancing.

California, Washington, Michigan, Nebraska, Arizona, Oklahoma, Florida, Texas and Georgia all managed to alleviate much of this bias by banning affirmative action and scrubbing identifying information from the applications. It is becoming clear that affirmative action as it is practiced today is discriminatory (implicitly or explicitly) against asians.

On the Harvard issue, the court’s job essentially was to find a deliberate attempt by Harvard to limit Asian applicants. The fact that they didn’t shows that this is an issue where the task is to fight implicit and under-the-surface bias which is a lot harder to fight. It is entirely possible that they were able to hide an actual deliberate attempt to discriminate against Asians, which is both unprovable and wouldn’t change the intervention required by the govt, unless they could root out evidence of deliberate discrimination.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

This doesn’t actually dispute anything he said. You’re attacking a straw man.

Let me try to connect the dots a bit more for you.

He is saying that all of our resources need to be directed at fighting discrimination against blacks. So none can really be spared to fight discrimination against asians.

The discrimination against asians that we are discussing is not the result of conservative racism. We can stop discrimination against asians by stopping liberal discrimination against asians.

However if in the interests of fighting discrimination against blacks, we must continue to discriminate against asians, then why does that burden on asians need to be icnreased to extend preferences to hispanics as well?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

So Asians spoke out and Democrats listened? That doesn’t sound like anti Asian sentiment to me.

Please try to use the words that I used. I never said sentiment.

The kneejerk reaction was to dismiss asian complaints about discrimination in order to protect affirmative action. Their instinct was to dismiss asian concerns in favor of preferences for other minorities. They had to be talked out of it. It was long and tedious work. And there are still plenty on the council that think that we should scrap the test.

I still am unaware of any significant number of Democrats that support Harvard, and you haven’t provided a cite to support your criticism of Democrats as a group regarding Harvard.

The ACLU is generally considered liberal. The NAACP is generally considered liberal. AALDEF is generally considered liberal, they all wrote amicus brief in defense of anti-asian discrimination at harvard (mostly be denying it exists).

These organizations are all run by prominent Democrats.

There are a slew of liberal asians basically calling other asians privileged and or racist for protesting the anti-asian discrimination. See the first episode of the Hasan Minhaj Show. Articles by Janelle Wong, Iris Kuo, Lisa Ko, and Julie J. Park.

All the defenses of Harvard’s admissions process are coming from liberals not conservatives. How many articles do you need to establish that this is a liberal position.

You haven’t supported this argument, and it seems just to be based on your feelings.

I’ve provided plenty of evidence but you seem to want a witness stand confession like Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men. is there really that much doubt in your mind that it is liberals that are defending Harvard and it’s affirmative action?

A cite for your characterization of Democrats as a group could be polling on particular cases of anti Asian discrimination, for example. Do you have polls that suggest that Democrats, as a group, think Asians should be second class citizens, or similar?

Don’t be absurd. Racists never admit to their racism. They frequently don’t even realize they are being racist. But it is Democrats and liberals that are defending anti-asian forms of affirmative action in spite of complaints that it is harmful to asians.

The response to the asian complaints is frequently accusations of racism, selfishness and white proximity.

So Democrats listened to the complaints of Asians, looked at the data, and changed their views?

No, it was a long and tedious process before that happened. And all the folks defending the anti-asian discrimination are STILL Democrats and liberals.

Actually, yes.

“I just don’t buy into the narrative that any one ethnic group owns admission to these schools,” - Carranza

The ethnic group he is referring to is asians. A group that has never claimed to own anything.

Asian Groups See Bias in Plan to Diversify New York’s Elite Schools...

I haven’t said that the test is no good (maybe it is, maybe it isn’t). I have no information on the test.

And yet you question it’s fairness when even the critics of the test do not.

And how about the SATs? Do you question that as well because that was the other test you were dismissing.

If any senior Democratic official has publicly made blanket negative characterizations of Asians without being strongly criticized by other Democrats, I would certainly agree with you. Has that occurred?

Carranza, the Democratic head of the largest public school system in the country has made such statements. He continues to have the full support of the Democratic mayor of the largest city in the country.

The only Democrats that seem to be strongly criticizing him are mostly asian Democrats.

You haven’t provided anything remotely comparable to the myriad of racist, bigoted, and similar statements from prominent Republicans.

Well shit, the Democrats don’t have a Donald Trump.