Here is the article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010509/aponline013921_000.htm
In the article Dr. Spitzer the man who spearheaded the APA delisting homosexuality as a disorder discusses the results from a study he did of ex-gays. In it he concludes that gay people can turn straight if they are highly motivated and that a mental health professional can help them in this process. This should silence the sexual fascists who say that gays who are unhappy in their lifestyle choices should not be allowed to try to change their sexual preference.
There is no such thing as compulsory homosexuality. The “sexual fascists” are the good Christian folk who wish to force all gay men and women to turn straight.
Regarding the study in question,if you had bothered to read the whole article, you would have seen that 2/3 of the sample population came from anti-gay groups, casting serious doubts on the validity of the study. While I don’t doubt that there are gay people who can function in a heterosexual relationship, I question if they do it for real fulfillment or to cope with immense pressure from family and church to “change.”
Why exactly do gays “choose” such a lifestyle…with all the social pressures associated with said “lifestyle”?
Of course when you self-Godwinize your own thread with a term like “sexual fascists”…
Surely you can see the gaping, oozing, tic-infested hole in this argument: he’s defining one’s sexuality by their actions. Do we consider celibate priests to be asexual?
Hell, I could go on a year long boy-fuckery tour, but no amount of buttsex (to use the technical term) would make me magically turn gay.
I know of no “sexual fascists” who say that gays who are unhappy in their “lifestyle choices” shouldn’t be allowed to try and change them. Most of the sexual fascism I hear about is aimed at changing gays who are perfectly happy with their sexual preference (although they might not be happy with how the rest of society views their sexual preference) into good little God-fearing heterosexuals.
What I think that actually suggests is that some gays can go straight, or at least make a good show of it.
I’m not surprised, as I’m of the opinion that a person can convince themselves of just about anything if they wish to do so.
I hate blueberries, but when my Mother-in-law made her “world famous” blueberry pie, and looked at me expectantly, I in very short order convinced myself that blueberries were the the world’s yummiest food, and wolfed down two helpings of the noxious fruit.
I have no doubt that if I lived in a predominantly gay society, I’d be gay.
However, I do think that I’m naturally heterosexual, and am happier that way, than I would be if I were gay.
I think the issue is complex. Why does a gay guy not want to be gay? If he’d be happier that way than as a heterosexual and only wants to convert to make his mom happy or “fit” with society, I think he’s making a mistake.
I think society in most cases makes it difficult to be gay. I imagine that those that are gay are that way in spite of tremendous pressure to be otherwise.
I mean imagine one of these guys that wants to convert:
He doesn’t want to be gay.
His family doesn’t want him to be gay.
His friends, his church, his girlfriend, society in general, all don’t want him to be gay.
I imagine that for such a person, who seems to have such strongly ingrained and immalleable sexual preference, that they have a much better shot at being happy with who they are.
I imagine that most people with homosexual tendencies that didn’t want to go that route worked it out on their own pretty early on.
If they didn’t, I’d question the worth of the effort.
From today’s NY Times:
“The researcher, Dr. Robert Spitzer, said his study was based on 45-minute telephone interviews with 143 men and 57 women who had sought help to change their sexual orientation. He and his colleagues found that 66 percent of the men and 44 percent of the women had achieved “good heterosexual functioning,” he said.”
Well, DUH. It seems from this that 100% of the people in the (tiny) study had ALREADY tried to change from gay to straight. Hardly a good sampling, and of course they would be inclined to say, “uhhh . . . yeah! it worked! It worked REAL GOOD!”
VarlosZ wrote:
Although it might make you turn bisexual, if you ended up acquiring a taste for it. 
so the boiled down version is that some people, given enough personal incentive can change their behavior for a period of time? This is a news flash?
(by now, you should realize that your thread title is inaccurate - “science says yes”??? no, “one researcher using a very unrandom sampling and questionable methods says maybe”)
When I use the term sexual fascists I mean only those who would seek to preclude psychologists from helping those gays who wanted to go straight. When I was studying psychology in the early 90’s there were many who said that it was unethical of psychologists to do this because it was impossible and that psychologists who attempted to help gays go straight were endangering their clients’ mental health.
As for objections to the study parameters, he was not trying to prove that such therapy is not 100% effective but that changing is possible. Also if you were trying to interview ex-gays who would you go to for interview subjects except organizations which help them. It would be a waste of money to try to get interview subjects from the Rosie O’Donnell fan club.
How else would you define sexuality other than who people have sex with? Attendance at Oscar parties? Enjoying the WNBA?
As to why someone would choose to be gay, I think it is beyond the scope of this study. Maybe there are benefits that are not readily apparent that some people value more than other people do. People choose actions and associations all the time based upon motivations which others would not understand.
I, for one, think this excellent and bodes well for me. There is hope. Thank you for enlightening me. I will run out and see a doctor who can help me. . . . oh wait, this is for the express purpose of turning gays to hetero. Hmmm. Well, maybe it’s a two way street. I’m sure if there are gays who want to be straight, there are also straights who want to become homosexuals. There has to be some help for us too, dammit. I’m mean I’m tired of looking at women and getting turned on. I want to be turned on by men. I WANT TO BE GAY. Please somebody help me. I so much want to become gay so that I can enjoy the hatred of closed-minded, ignoramus bigots who assume my sexual preference is a choice and that I can, and should change.
Sorry Puddle,
This study definitely provides evidence consistent with the contention that people who have previously made public efforts to alter a homosexual life style to a heterosexual lifestyle will report success to a subsequent inquiry within a selected sample.
That falls a bit short of the thread title.
It ain’t science. It’s politics.
Tris
“RESULTS CRITICIZED
Psychologist Douglas Haldeman, who is on the clinical faculty of the University of Washington and has published evaluations of reparative therapy, said the study offers no convincing evidence of change.
He said there is no credible scientific evidence that suggests sexual orientation can be changed, “and this study doesn’t prove that either.”
He also said the participants appeared unusually skewed toward religious conservatives and people treated by therapists “with a strong anti-gay bias.” Such participants might think that being a homosexual is bad and feel pressured to claim they were no longer gay, Haldeman said.
Some 43 percent of the sample had been referred to Spitzer by “ex-gay ministries” that offer programs to gay people who seek to change, organizations Haldeman said are chiefly sponsored by religious conservatives. An additional 23 percent were referred by the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, which says most of its members consider homosexuality a developmental disorder”
Or alternatively, Science says no.
Argh. Excuse the simulpost, beagledave
The person who conducted the interviews was a trained researcher who had no axe to grind. I think he is qualified to judge the veracity of the people he interviewed. Anonymous self report is the basis for most social research and I see no reason why this study is invalid because of that.
As to where he got his subjects, this is not a valid criticism of his methods because he was not trying to make conclusions about the motivations of the therapists only whether their methods can work. If you wanted to interview ex-alcholics you would go to AA for people to contact. When you want to study small groups of people you would make contact with groups that are acquainted with those people.
Tony:
Congratulations on your decision to become gay. There are several things you can do…
[ul]
[li] Make it a point to hug all your buddies. While doing this, dry-hump their legs and squeeze their butts.[/li][li] Masturbate while looking at extreme close-ups of male nipples. Start with glabrously chested males.[/li][li] Hi, Opal![/li][li] Lick your own feet. If possible, try to do this while having a friend tickle your testicles.[/li][li] Hold both terminals of a car battery while looking at pictures of naked women.[/li][li] When desires for women do surface, force yourself to think about sex with Janet Reno.[/li][li] Dress up like a woman and administer self-felatio.[/li][li] If you begin to stray, and find yourself having sex with a good looking woman you love, ask her to stab you in the eyes with scissors. This should offset any feelings you’re having “down there”.[/li][li] If all else fails, lie to yourself.[/li][/ul]
Gary Kumquat wrote:
Fixed link for the above:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_1320000/1320743.stm
(The original link had a <br> at the end of it if you clicked on it. I think this happened because the URL was in double quotes, which it ain’t supposed to be.)
Libertarian joked:
[QUOTE]
[li] Dress up like a woman and administer self-felatio.[/li][/QUOTE]
If I could do that, I’d never leave the house. <rimshot>
Oh, it’s easy, Tracer. Just put on a bra and some panties. 