Can God change the value of Pi?

Ultrafilter:

Thanks, I needed that.

Dryga:

I understand your basic point. If we take the term “Pi” to mean “Pi, as it is now, in this universe as it is”, then the possibility of God producing a new Pi is thereby excluded.

MarkGross:

“Does a thing’s possibility of existance rely upon the ability of the human mind to understand it? I hate to think so.”

Giving mind–not just the human mind–a role to play in the universe is not much in fashion at present, but there is a sort of logical argument in favor of that view, and I find it compelling. It goes like this:

  1. To be genuinely a reference, a purported reference must be about some subject, S, which is its referent.
  2. To be genuinely a referent, a purported referent must have some meaning known to the maker of the reference; ie, to “refer to something” excludes the case “to refer to X, where X stands for no meaning whatever.”
  3. To be genuinely the meaning of a referent, the purported meaning must be actually known by the reference-maker AS the meaning of the referent.
  4. To speak of anything, or even to think of anything in the manner that precedes speech, entails the making of a genuine reference to the subject of the speaking or thinking.
  5. It follows that the logical domain of any and all assertion is coterminous with the set of entities available to being known by some assertor.
  6. It is thus false to assert that there are things, the possibility of the existence of which does NOT “rely upon the ability of [some] mind to understand.”
  7. It follows that, if it is possible for anything to exist, a condition of its existence is that it be available to the understanding of some mind (that is, that it not be "defined as ‘unknowable’; and by logic what is not defined as unknowable is possibly knowable).

Is this a valid analogy?
Pi is the sum of an infinite series. Therefore, saying that the value of that sum could change would be equivalent to saying that a supreme being could arrange it so that 1 + 1 is not equal to 2.

Assuming it’s a valid analogy, the question could then be translated to the more familiar (and fundamental) question - could a supreme being arrange for one plus one to be unequal to two.

That analogy might work in this case, but I feel compelled to point out a couple technicalities.

You can reorder the terms of certain infinite series so that they sum to any value you like. These series have positive and negative terms, though. Fortunately for you, there is a series whose sum is [symbol]p[/symbol] which has only positive terms.

And the sum of an infinite series is not actually the sum of an infinite number of addends. Rather, it’s the limit as the number of terms increases without bound. This seems to me to be a problem.

How are the mathematical principles governing the value of the limit of an infinite series different than the rules governing addition? Besides the fact that limits are less well understood amongst the general population?

This is kind of a tough question to answer. To a mathematician, they’re completely different beasts, but to a layperson, they seem the same because in a lot of cases, they act the same. I’ll have to think about it.

This explanation is going to require a lot of maths. I will explain it all as simply as I can, but I apologise in advance for the sheer volume of it.

I think the main difference is that the sum of an infinite series doesn’t always exist. The easiest example is 1+1+… doesn’t mean anything. I suppose you could say that it was ‘infinite’, but it doesn’t converge (have a limit) in a traditional sense. Another example is 1 - 1 + 1 -1 + 1… As you sum terms you alternate between 1 and 0, so the sum cannot converge.

The problem is that, because you’re looking at infinite series, you have the misleading association with summing finite series. The issue of convergence should really be looked at from the perspective of sequences (or nets, but I’ll scare people if I start talking about nets. :)). A sequence is basically a way of assigning something to each counting number. e.g. 3, 3.1, 3.14, 3.141,… is a sequence with first term 3, second term 3.1, etc. We say this sequence converges to Pi. Convergence has a precise technical definition, which basically amounts to ‘a sequence converges to x if the nth term gets arbitrarily close to x as n becomes large’, but it must come close for all sufficiently large terms. For example, if I was to take that sequence converging to Pi and replace the 100th, 200th, etc. terms with 1 then it would no longer converge to Pi.

There are of course many sequences that don’t converge, such as 0, 1, 0, 1…

For the familiar numbers, which mathematicians call the Real numbers, the most important test to see if a sequence converges is that if there is a number such that every term in the sequence is less than it (we say that number bounds the sequence above) and each term in the sequence is greater than or equal to the last, the sequence converges to some number. This is called the fundamental theorem of analysis. As an example we have the sequence 3, 3.1, 3.14, 3.141,… Every term is less than 4, and each term is greater than the previous. Thus it converges to some number, which we call Pi.

Ok, now that’s out of the way I can answer your question. :slight_smile:

Say we have an infinite sequence x_1, x_2,…,x_n,… (I hope this notation is clear - it’s basically just the same as using variables x,y, etc. to represent numbers. We just have an infinite number of these variables so we assign a number to each). We define a sequence x_1, x_1 + x_2, x_1 + x_2 +x_3, … This sequence is called the sequence of partial sums. Any one of these terms behaves exactly like normal addition (because it is normal addition). We then define the infinite sum x_1+x_2+x_3+… to be the limit of this sequence.

It would be nice if infinite sums behaved exactly like normal finite sums and, as Ultrafilter said, in a lot of cases they do. Given a number x, we define the absolute value of x to be x ignoring the sign. i.e. if x is positive then the absolute value of x is the same as x, if x is negative then the absolute value of x is -x (which is positive, because x is negative). We denote this as |x|. An infinite sum x_1 + x_2 + … is called absolutely convergent if the infinite sum defined by |x_1| + |x_2| + … converges. Absolutely convergent sums are nice because they converge and you can rearrange the terms however you want and they will still converge to the same number (this isn’t entirely trivial to prove, and I’m certainly not going to do it here. Take my word for it). The bulk of infinite sums people use are absolutely convergent, simply because they’re so much nicer than the alternative and do in general behave almost exactly like a normal sum.

The easiest example of a sum which does converge but is not absolutely convergent is 1 - 1/2 + 1/3 - 1/4 + 1/5 - … If you rearrange the terms as 1 + 1/3 - 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/5 - 1/3 + … then it will still converge and it contains all the same terms as the previous, but it converges to a different number. The problem is that, while you can always rearrange each finite sum, you can’t rearrange all the terms at once. When you think about it, this isn’t really surprising - You shouldn’t expect that when you’re dealing with an infinite number of things it’s going to behave like a finite number. The problem is that there are so many nice examples that one grows to expect that all examples are nice.

Does that help?

Now that that hijack is over, the OP…

I’m more or less agnostic, but for the moment I’ll assume there is a god. If he is indeed omnipotent, I would say yes. Even if we still use the same axioms and rules of inference as now, he can consistently change our perception of these. As has been said, maths is a construction of humans rather than nature, and thus god cannot change it directly. However (we are for the moment assuming) humans are made by god, and thus subject to her influence. If she wished, 1+1 could be equal to 3 and we would all believe this and not percieve any trouble doing so, even if we also believed that everything was defined in the same way - ‘all’ that is needed is a consistently applied universal deception. Thus, if she wished, Pi could equal 3.1415926… or something equally silly instead of 4. :wink:

Great argument! I actually agree wholeheartedly with it, given that you replaced the “human” mind with “some” mind.

My thoughts were simply that the human mind may have perception or comprehension limitations (not necessarily shared universally) which can not prevent the existance of a thing outside those limitations. Of course, in those cases, if the human mind cannot comprehend or percieve it, I agree that an argument can be made that it does not exist to the human. Our comprehension of “one-ness” is limited by the scope of our minds.

If there exists Mind (Intent, Conciousness, etc.) that does not have the same limitations as the human mind, things may exist for it which do not “exist” within the perception/comprehension of humans - like pi that isn’t 3.14…

If the mind of God is limitless, then truly, all things are possible. Including the value of pi changing to another value. Hey, in that light, it might even be possible for the Cubs to win the World Series again, but that may be pushing it. :smiley:
Mark

Excellent exposition, kitarak.

Consider two observations about Euclidean geometry:

  1. The ratio of a cirlce’s circumference and diameter is some fixed value (pi) for all circles.

  2. The ratio of the length of a side of a square to any other side (or itself) is some fixed value (1) for all squares.

Both are arrived at through the same sort of rules of math and geometry, and are (I argue) equally subject to change by omnipotent God foodling (either both are or both aren’t). With the second, however, it is a little clearer that changing the ratio from 1 to, say, 2, would render a simple logical impossibility given that a square is defined as having equal sides. So the question becomes

“Can God create two sums (A and B) where: A = B, and A <> B?”

Not in Euclidean geometry or with our rules of math he can’t, because then it would no longer be Euclidean geometry or our rules of math.

“If God is omnipotent, can’t He create two equal lengths (or values) where each is twice as long as the other, and do so without violating the rules of our mathmatical system? After all, He can do ANYTHING?”

My response is “No”, because that is just silly.

This is different from the question of whether God can create a universe that uses non-euclidean geometry. I think He probably already has, and we are living in it. Euclidean geometry is just one nice guess at trying to understand it.

Once you start playing with the word omnipotent, all the “rules” get thrown out the window. If “God” wanted to then he could indeed make 1+1=3. If we considered it “normal” for a third item to transport itself into existence ala Star Trek whenever we used a math concept of T+1 then it would indeed equal 3. true it doesnt follow the current “rules” of physics or mathmatics but then again i assert that God indeed is the author of those rules and may change them at will with no inconsistencies. The only consistencies we have now are the ones that “God” chooses to remain constant. If he wanted things to pop out of midair for no real reason whats stopping him?

err… 1+1 not T+1

The word “circle” is man’s definition of particular naturally occurring shape. And alias, the word “shape” is another definition of man’s. It is my belief that God, has given us the drive to classify our universe, and we have done so, via symbols and words. These help us to communicate ideas between ourselves, and to duplicate each other’s efforts. Why, and to what end, I’ll probably never know.
However, do we humans even have the tools needed to understand this fish bowl that we must live within. From what little I understand of math, we measure the circle’s circumference by imagining it to be infinitely smaller little straight lines with their lengths all added together, do you think that God would have to simplify the problem, as we humans have, to solve it? I think not, thus would God have a use for Pi at all, I think not. So, I propose that Pi is simply a man made tool no different than a hammer.

He did. It used to be exactly 3. So you see, the Bible was right after all!

[sub]Ow, ow, no hitting…[/sub]

the irrational God can change it. the sane God cannot.

“the irrational God can change it. the sane God cannot”

dal:

The problem is that the “sane God” is the one who happens to be in charge at the moment, inasmuch as He defines what is to be counted as “sane.”

Question for those who mention the appearance of Pi in infinite series:

Is Pi still Pi if it arises in the infinite series, BUT no longer measures the ratio of the diameter or a circle to its circumference?
What if these constants were not equal to one another (in some “new reality”)? Is it still Pi?

As long as that ratio has a decimal expansion (and if it’s a real number, it does), there is an infinite series which sums to it. Your question is ill-founded.

I assume you’re refering to 1 Kings chapter 7 verse 23. Consider that an error in circumference of the constructed cauldron of over 2 feet would have been readily noticed.

Keep in mind that the Hebrews didn’t have a decimal system. There is a theory that that the alphanumeric translation (gematria)of the Hebrew text with respect to the two “round” words in that verse would lead to a value of pi of 333/106 or 3.14151. In that case the error would be about 1/16th of an inch.
reference: www.m-a.org.uk/eb/mg/mg082bb.pdf

Thank you kitarak. Since there are several absolutely convergent sums to calculate pi (I am going to pick one by Euler, from here):
pi = ( 6 (1 + (1 / 2[sup]2[/sup]) + (1 / 3[sup]2[/sup]) + (1 / 4[sup]2[/sup]) + …) )[sup].5[/sup]
and since you say that “(absolutely convergent) infinite sums behaved exactly like normal finite sums”, then I am going to say again that being able to change the value of pi should be the same as being able to change the value of 1 + 1, no? And therefore the question in the OP can be restated to “Could a supreme being change the value of 1 + 1?”

To which my answer would be: No.

Actually I need to restate my quote: you said “It would be nice if infinite sums behaved exactly like normal finite sums and, as Ultrafilter said, in a lot of cases they do”, and then you go on to discuss absolutely convergent sums. I therefore conclude that the formula I have above is an absolutely convergent sum by your definition (all terms are positive) and therefore behaves exactly like a normal finite sum.

grienspace, from this Straight Dope column:
Did a state legislature once pass a law saying pi equals 3?