Monotheism is incorrect; pantheism is correct.

Monotheists, such as Christians, see God as primary, and all things are because He wills them to be.

This proposition, however, can easily be shown to be false. For God cannot alter the truths of mathematics, and the fact that pi is 3.14… could not be other than it is. Hence, God could not create a universe in which pi was exactly 3.15; that is, one in which the circumference of a circle divided by the diameter would produce this number.

Aquinas dealt with this issue but botched it, when considering the question of “Whether created truth is immutable.”
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** Objection 1: It seems that created truth is eternal. For Augustine says (De Lib. Arbit. ii, 8) “Nothing is more eternal than the nature of a circle, and that two added to three make five.” But the truth of these is a created truth. Therefore created truth is eternal.**

Aquinas responds:

Reply to Objection 1: The nature of a circle, and the fact that two and three make five, have eternity in the mind of God.

The first problem is the assumption that the nature of a circle is a “created truth.” That is, that it could be otherwise but God wills it to be thus. This assumption is prima facie false.

Regarding the larger question, Aquinas writes,

In like manner it has been already said that things are called true from the truth of the intellect. Hence, if no intellect were eternal, no truth would be eternal. Now because only the divine intellect is eternal, in it alone truth has eternity. Nor does it follow from this that anything else but God is eternal; since the truth of the divine intellect is God Himself, as shown already.

Aquinas misses the essence of the problem and falls into the semantic pit. He fails to separate a truth as grasped by the intellect and the same truth in and of itself. In short, he’s saying that the properties of a circle would not exist did God not conceive of them. I assert the contrary: the rules of number and pattern are the absolute foundation of That Which Is–they ARE “God.”

Pantheism holds that God is all and all is God. I consider myself a pantheist not because I believe that there is a separate entity called God that requires explaining, but because others have posited a God that requires un-explaining, or disproving. This, however, begs the question of why I call myself a pantheist and not an atheist.

The reason lies in how I and an atheist differently characterize That Which Is. Let’s do a simple thought experiment. Imagine now an absolute void. Not the void of space, since space is itself something, but absolute nothing. There is no time, either. There are however, those rules of pattern and number. Hence, absolute nothingness is, it turns out, impossible. It is my view that this absolutely primitive state was, in fact, infinite potential. There was nothing to prevent a near-infinite number of things from coming into being, and so they did: the Big Bang; perhaps an infinite number of Big Bangs.

Hence, I see this primal TWI as having properties that arise from those same rules of pattern and number. Just as a circumference/diameter must equal pi, our own universe must have come into being. And it came into being with a purpose: to be, to live, to think. It is this perception of, or belief in, purpose that separates me from and atheist. (And also my belief in an afterlife, but that I believe to have been factually proven–a different topic.)

Was Spinoza the original pantheist? I’m not sure, but he argued well in favor of it.
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Prop. XIV. Besides God no substance can be granted or conceived.
Proof.–As God is a being absolutely infinite, of whom no attribute that expresses the essence of substance can be denied (by Def. vi.), and he necessarily exists (by Prop. xi.) ; if any substance besides God were granted it would have to be explained by some attribute of God, and thus two substances with the same attribute would exist, which (by Prop. v.) is absurd; therefore, besides God no substance can be granted, or consequently, be conceived. If it could be conceived, it would necessarily have to be conceived as existent; but this (by the first part of this proof) is absurd. Therefore, besides God no substance can be granted or conceived. Q.E.D.

Also, he got the idea of infinite potential, although I take issue with him on some points:

**Prop. XVI. From the necessity of the divine nature must follow an infinite number of things in infinite ways–that is, all things which can fall within the sphere of infinite intellect.

Proof.–This proposition will be clear to everyone, who remembers that from the given definition of any thing the intellect infers several properties, which really necessarily follow therefrom (that is, from the actual essence of the thing defined); and it infers more properties in proportion as the definition of the thing expresses more reality, that is, in proportion as the essence of the thing defined involves more reality. Now, as thc divine nature has absolutely infinite attributes (by Def. vi.) , of which each expresses infinite essence after its kind, it follows that from the necessity of its nature an infinite number of things (that is, everything which can fall within the sphere of an infinite intellect) must necessarily follow. Q.E.D.**

The problem with this proposition (which is close to modern Many Worlds Theory) is that it ignores the problem of conflicting concepts. But I’d like to deal with that in a future post about Many Worlds Theory.

At any rate, both monothesists and atheists have big problems with the arguments I have posted above, but I will be happy to discuss them with any interested party.

Thank you for posting!

Ok, maybe it’s just me and my stupid talking, I’ll fully admit, but I don’t get how you’re supposed to be able to “prove” using logic and math-type thingies, something that’s based in faith.

I am a pantheist for the record, but because I believe there’s many different faces of one entity that many different peoples see/refer to in many different ways. Not because of any matholigcal conclusion.

shrug

Believing in the Christian God requires faith - he is allowing logic to lead him to his beliefs. It’s definitely one way of looking at things. Albiet scary. I like to feel like i’m worth something, personally :slight_smile:

There is nothing contradictory with a Monotheistic, while Pantheistic religion; they are not mutually exclusive.

Yep, that’s the separation. Everything else looked fine. You’re calling nature/the universe/the laws of physics “god”. I have no problem with that. I’ll admit that I don’t know how it all began, but I don’t have anything to make me lean toward a beginning “with a purpose” over any other theory.

Can I hijack for a brief summary, or perhaps can you post a brief summary in my Your Evidence for God thread (which I guess I should have named “Your evidence for God/gods/other religious beliefs”)?

Isn’t it possible that when God was creating the universe He said, “I want the circumference of a circle devided by its diameter to equal 3.1415…”?

IMHO, it is just as illogical to believe in multiple gods as there is to believe in one singular God. I do believe in God, so I guess that makes us both illogical, doesn’t it? :wink:

That’s what I get for trying to engage in a theological debate before I’ve had my coffee.

If you hold “all-that-exists” to be your God, then you can trump all other God claims instantly and irrefutably. If the Christian God exists, it is just yet another component element of your God. If it doesn’t, it isn’t, but there’ still plenty of other things that are. And so on for other Gods. It’s unfalsifiable, which is bad for empiricism, but just fine for an element of regard. I’m not sure that makes monotheism incorrect, just makes it irrelevant to one that worships “all that exists.”

Hmmmm, it seems very simple to me; Monotheism worships the cause, and pantheism worships the effect…

You are not giving God the credit that God deserves. Anything can be divided. Only God can created something other. Like mathematics, which obey the laws set by God.

I have a problem with the above. I don’t quite understand how there can possibly be rules of pattern and number in absolute nothingness.

Do you mean that the only possible universe that could result from a change in absolute nothingness necessarily contains those rules?

Do you mean those rules are immutable, infinite and exist regardless of the existence of anything else?

Am I confused? Probably. I am interested in your pantheism theory, especially because the differentiation between atheism (hi, that’s me) and pantheism seems to rest on your quote above. So please expand and explain, and you might get a convert (not that you’re looking for one).

No, that’s the main point. The ratio of the circumference of a circle to the diameter must be the same in every possible universe.

Which is not to say that every possible universe must have (at least) 2 dimensions (as we do), or that space is constructed in exactly the same way.

But let me put it this way: Could God have created this universe and made everything exactly the same–except that pi was equal to 5.5?

No, obviously not.

[QUOTE=Karmagun]
I have a problem with the above. I don’t quite understand how there can possibly be rules of pattern and number in absolute nothingness.

[quote]
Yes, that’s the point: these rules pertain in EVERY possible universe. Pi must always equal 3.14…, and 2 + 2 = 4–always. These rules are not dependent on any particular instantiation for their being. They are absolute, eternal, and immutable. Further, it is inconceivable that God could create these rules, since they don’t require any creation in the first place. Hence, God and the rules are part of the same set, are one, (my view) or God is subordinate to them. Either option contradicts traditional monotheism.

Yes. Further, absolute nothingness cannot exist, since the rules themselves are there. (Not to mention that the existence of absolute nothingness is, in essence, an unproved empirical claim, which is contradicted by Big Bang Theory.)

Even so.

Thanks for your interest, although my belief is not a religious one–it is of a philosophical nature. It is also backed up in good measure by empirical science (or, rather, is built upon both philosophy and empirical science). Keep in mind also that the question is not so much “Is there a God?” but rather, “What, if anything, is what people refer to as God?”

I think that the intuition of a higher power is correct. Also that this power is benevolent–that existence is fundamentally a good thing. That consciousness is fundamental to Reality; or, that what is fundamental implies consciousness. That Reality itself is truly infinite–the rules can never be completely delineated–Godel proved this. Hence, Reality is greater than we can ever conceive, and is, in fact, infinitely expanding in time as well as in trans-time dimensions.

My belief in the reality of spirit (no doubt related to those fundamental rules–our separating it from matter as if it were different is our hang-up, not Reality’s) is backed up by evidence of ghosts, psi, and the afterlife. Hence, I call myself a pantheist and not an atheist.

How do you know? The entire premise of your argument seems to be that the numerical patterns in our universe must be constant in any other universe. I don’t understand how that can be considered anything but a guess. There are many things that seem intuitive, but have been proven false by physics. Furthermore, we’re a long way from understanding our universe, so it seems to me that any statements about other possible universes must be wildly speculative.

I agree that our universe couldn’t be exactly the same with pi equal to 5.5, but what if it was 5.5, with the necessary changes to space-time that entails, and we still existed? How could we possibly know the difference?

If you are stating the above premise as a hypothesis, then your line of reasoning appears logical to me, however if you are saying that it must be a fact, I would have to disagree. I don’t think there is enough evidence to know either way. As I said before, intuition is not a reliable basis for information.

For the record, I am an athiest, and I apologize in advance if I’ve misinterpreted any of your statements :slight_smile:

They are mutually exclusive, in that they involve very different attitudes towards the divine. Monotheists believe in a God who is a person, with a mind, a consciousness, a personality, a will. As the “philosophical theist” Martin Gardner put it, in his book Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener: “You can thank a person for a drink of water. You cannot thank a cloud.”

Yes, that’s right.

That 2 + 2 = 4 always is not a guess. There is no possible universe in which it could be otherwise.

You need to distinguish between the intuition required to see that baisc mathematical facts are true, and other types of intuition.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that 2 + 2 = 4 in any universe.

Pi is a mathematically provable figure–it is not something we know because we measured it. However, it is no coincidence that when we do measure figures that are more or less circles, the ratio of circumference to diameter is close to 3.14 and not 5.5. Further, there is no such thing as a perfect circle in our physical system–such a figure cannot exist. The facts of geometry do not depend on physical instantiation. In fact, they are NOT physically instantiated in our own universe.

I agree that another universe could have space-time that functions completely different from that of ours. Still, pi could not equal 5.5 in a base-ten number system. The reasons are as follows:

  1. An irrational number cannot be expressed as repeating decial in any base. This is a mathematically proven fact. Pi is an irrational number.

  2. Unless the curve of space itself were denominated precisely in powers of pi, I don’t see how intelligent beings could ever physically (as through measurement, etc.) come up with a value of 5.5 for a pi-like concept. Even if they did, the figure that they so measured would not be a two-dimensional circle (as we define it), but a multi-dimension manifold. In other words, it would not be the same concept.

This is a philosophical question, not one that can be answered by empirical science. I recognize that there are varying opinions on the subject, held by very smart people.

I must say that I find your argument incredibly fascinating, Aeschines. That said, it’s predicated on something that cannot be proven or disproven with any degree of accuracy. You say that 2+2=4 because it has to, and it cannot be any other way in any other universe. Seeing as we don’t understand ours, that’s a mighty leap to make, but I can accept that.

While you’ve made an interesting statement, that’s all it is: It’s a statement. I don’t exactly see what it is you would like to debate. It certainly can’t be your proof. The logic holds and is based on something that cannot be argued with. You state, if I’m not mistaken, that certain truths (for example, that 2+2=4) are eternal independent of anything else. God doesn’t say that 2+2=4; 2+2=4 becasue any other state is absolutely impossible. That’s a faith-based statement, and I’ve noticed in my limited years on this earth that faith can only be argued against with more faith. If both faiths are equally strong, you end up with nothing gained. Your faith-based statement is that God can not say that 2+2=5. My faith-based statement is that He can. Unless I’m mistaken, there’s nothing more to debate. If there is something else to debate in this thread, please bring it to my attention. I’m rather interested.

I’m sorry if I repeated myself, I was just typing as I was thinking and didn’t want to erase anything for fear of leaving some of my ideas out.

No way. Empirical science is founded upon the knowledge (not belief) that 2 + 2 = 4 (and other mathematical facts) hold true in all possible universes or partitions of Reality.

Were this not so, I could just as well suppose that this fact holds true in this half of the room, but not in the other. After all, I have no proof that they are in the same universe, or are governed by the same set of rules. According to your reasoning, God could make it so.

Yes, that’s right, it can’t be argued with. There’s no fiddling with the rock-bottom truths of mathematics. Not even an omnipotent God could change them. That’s the whole point: any God you suppose to exist is subordinate to these principles.

No, it is not “faith.” The word is entirely inappropriate in this context. Insofar as Reason functions at all, it must function according to these principles. They are simply intuited and understood. For example, it cannot be argued whether modus ponens or modus tollens are “right” or not, since any argument about them would require using them. “Faith” refers to that which is beyond the understanding.

So, is it honestly your belief that God could change 2 + 2 = 4 into 2 + 2 = 5 in this universe while leaving everything else the same? 3 + 2 would equal 5 but 2 + 2 would equal 5 as well? God could do this?

I’m sure you see that He could not.

You’d be surprised. I’ve had people assert that mathematics is empirically derived (it’s not), is dependent on the physics of a particular universe (it’s not), or that God really does have “control” over the rules of pattern and number (he doesn’t).

Thank you. There is much else to talk about such as how the singularity of the Big Bang relates to the Pure Potentiality implicit in the rules of pattern and number, etc.

IANAMathematician, but nevertheless, it seems to me that one could make different basic assumptions (like pi=5,5) and derive from them a whole new mathematical system. It wouldn’t be grounded in our reality (you couldn’t find an actual circle, measure it and find pi=5,5, precisely because in our universe, pi = 3,14), but it still could be internally coherent.

As far as I can understand, mathematics rest on a few basic assumptions which can’t be themselves proved. These assumptions being based on our perception of our universe’s reality. But one could arbitrarily pick another set of assumptions and apply the same mathematical logic. The mathematical system resulting from this process couldn’t be used in the study of our universe, but it still could be conceived that it would actually have a valid descriptive value in another alternate universe.

So, I’m definitely unconvinced by your statement that pi must be equal to 3,14 in any conceivable universe, let alone in the absence of any universe.