I would agree with this. Put me down for a vote for each.
I would like to change Cobb to Williams. I don’t like voting for someone like Cobb and Williams is a great choice.
Williams was kind of a dick too. It’s hard to compare because it seems like some of Cobb’s worst behavior was exaggerated at least.
As always happens, when people pick the best ever it tends to skew heavily towards outfielders.
Cobb was especially bad though and Williams was just a bit of an ass that was also a Combat Ace during Korea and also served as a fighter pilot in WWII. So overall a Mensch by comparison.
Remember, I’m a Yankee fan and I’m picking Williams over Joe D & Mickey. Not easy to narrow this to 3. But Ruth & Mays are absolute locks as far as I’m concerned.
Honestly, I’m mainly voting for Williams as best chance to edge Bonds out of the first round.
I’m in.
Ruth, Mays, Jackie Robinson.
His reputation as a massive asshole seems to be greatly exaggerated by a sportswriter who held a grudge against him. Here’s a good article from some years ago. Either way, I think Williams is a better pick - I want my first…ten or so picks to be a guy who was the all-time best _____ at something. If Cobb’s greatest strength was his hit tool, Williams still has him beat as the greatest pure hitter of all time.
OK, Part One (the easy part) is now concluded, with Ruth and Mays in, and Bonds and Williams tied (sorry, W-E?) for the third spot, and everyone else out. Part Two is relatively easy, too, and it’s another part that’s pretty uncontroversial (because anyone excluded from it will very likely get into Part Three, which is another no-brainer HoF cohort). If Ted Williams, for example, had finished fourth in the voting, I suspect that he would have led in the Part Two voting. In other words, Williams would have made the top four either way
The question for Part Two is: “Excluding Ruth, Mays, Bonds, and Williams, name the all-time best player at each position.” (I’m dividing “Pitcher” into righthanded and lefthanded pitcher because if I don’t, pitchers will be under-represented in the HoF.) To make it easy to tally, please copy and paste the form below, or at least use the same order:
C—
1B—
2B—
SS—
3B—
LF—
CF—
RF—
RHP—
LHP—
Are we limited to MLB only in this part?
Yes, I suppose it doesn’t matter much, since non-MLB (and non-20th Century nominations for that matter) are likely to be wasted in a majority-rules system, like this one.) But I’ll try to include uncounted nominees in specialized votes later.
C— Yogi Berra, check his numbers, actually better than Bench and a got more rings. BTW Bill James agreed.
1B— Lou Gehrig first number retired in baseball history.
2B— Jackie Robinson, maybe not the best by talent and skill but the most important and most famous.
SS— Honus Wagner, but boy do I want to vote for Jeter.
3B— Brook Robinson for his glove. Schmidt is my 2nd choice.
LF— Ricky Henderson, best Lead-off hitter and base stealer also. Keeping in mind that Williams & Bonds are excluded from this one.
CF— Mickey Mantle By WAR he is at #2 behind Mays and I want to vote for him. Especially over Cobb. BTW Snider was #10 by WAR, what an embarressment of riches in NYC for CF in the 50s.
RF— Hank Aaron Clemente would be a great choice too
RHP— Christy Mathewson Walter Johnson is my 2nd choice.
LHP— Warren Spahn Koufax’s prime years were too short and Whitey’s win total in probably too low.
No Relief Pitcher? If so, Mariano Rivera in a walk.
C—Bench
1B—Gehrig
2B—Morgan
SS—Wagner
3B—Schmidt
LF—Musial
CF—Mantle
RF—Aaron
RHP—Seaver
LHP—Grove
C— Josh Gibson
1B— Lou Gehrig
2B— Rogers Hornsby
SS— Honus Wagner
3B— Mike Schmidt
LF— Stan Musial
CF— Mickey Mantle
RF— Hank Aaron
RHP— Walter Johnson
LHP— Randy Johnson
This got tougher. I honestly think A-Rod was a better 3B than Schmidt, but Schmidt was purely a 3B, wasn’t a dick, and doesn’t have any baggage - and it was close enough that I’ll give Schmidt the bonus points.
I’m ignoring the MLB-only suggestion for Gibson, because Josh Gibson was an absolute legend among people and players who saw him and played against him. If their accounts don’t count for anything, what’s the purpose of reading them? I can’t argue with someone who played against both Gibson and Hank Aaron, and says Gibson was a more ferocious hitter while playing the most demanding position in the game.
Likewise with Walter Johnson. He wasn’t limited to the back of the baseball bus, but we really know little about him. Numbers from his era don’t easily translate, so how do you pick him over a more modern choice like Gibson or Clemens, or even a later but more modern choice like Lefty Grove or Alexander? I guess sportswriter consensus, and the fact that in a dead ball era when no one really struck out, The Big Train put up other-worldly numbers. I wish we could send Jacob deGrom back to teach him a slider. But I worry that if we did, Johnson wouldn’t have made baseball any fun to play for anyone else, and the sport would have died.
I kind of wanted to hold off on Musial as a utility man who played around the OF plus 1B in favor of Rickey Henderson, but I just can’t. Rickey was such an amazing talent, and so absolute unique amongst the pantheon of great players, but The Man just produced at a higher level.
Good point. I’m changing Cobb to Ted Williams too. Does that change the first round results?
C— Josh Gibson
1B— Lou Gehrig
2B— Eddie Collins
SS— Alex Rodriguez
3B— Mike Schmidt
LF— Rickey Henderson
CF— Oscar Charleston
RF— Hank Aaron
RHP— Walter Johnson
LHP— Lefty Grove
It pains me to pick Griffey over Joe D. but so be it.
C— Johnny Bench
1B— Lou Gehrig
2B— Rogers Hornsby
SS— Ozzie Smith
3B— Brooks Robinson
LF— Stan Musial
CF— Ken Griffey Jr.
RF— Hank Aaron
RHP— Tom Seaver
LHP— Sandy Koufax
C— Yogi Berra
1B— Lou Gehrig
2B— Joe Morgan
SS— Honus Wagner
3B— Eddie Mathews
LF— Rickey Henderson
CF— Ty Cobb
RF— Henry Aaron
RHP— Roger Clemens
LHP— Warren Spahn
Damn - I think Wilson’s list is better than mine. I still like Hornsby over Collins, but he didn’t make any excuses and went straight for Charleston. If I am going to allow for myth and legend to get Gibson in, then there’s no reason to not vote for Oscar.
I don’t want to hijack this into a discussion about Williams but I do want to take a second to recommend a documentary. Ted Williams: The Greatest Hitter That Ever Lived was on PBS. You can find it online. It’s not a hit piece against Williams but it accurately shows him as a foul mouthed misanthrope. His active military service was unblemished but what is lost in the legend is the fact that he actively and publicly fought going into the military. To him playing baseball was much more important than a world war. As you can imagine that did not go well with the public at the time. It also goes into how he turned his back on his mother and the Mexican side of his family.
His military service is one of the reasons why I put him as one of the best. He put up those kinds of numbers and missed 5 of his prime baseball years.
C— Johnny Bench
1B— Lou Gehrig
2B— Jackie Robinson
SS— Ernie Banks
3B— Mike Schmidt
LF— Stan Musial
CF— Joe DiMaggio
RF— Roberto Clemente
RHP— Bob Gibson
LHP— Sandy Koufax
Collins vs Hornsby is very close, I’ll admit, and to be honest it’s hard not to pick Jackie Robinson at second.
I will admit I’m having a hard time justifying Rickey over Musial in my mind - Musial’s peak and career value are probably a little above Rickey. I could say that I gave Rickey the edge because he was almost entirely a left fielder while Musial played first base the most, but the truth is he’s just a personal favorite so I gave him the nod.