Can Islam become Liberalised? Ever?

Islam has becoming more secular and orthodox in the last 50-60 years, how did this happen? Most of the Islamic world seems to be monolithic and oppressive, will there ever be any change, the grip of the Roman Catholic church has been on a steady decline from its hights of power in the Western world ever since the 16th century. Ok so change has been bad (in thier eyes) for the Church, but it has had to embrace it. I was wondering if this is ever possible in Islam?

From my perpective, the mullahs and society in general have a structure where thinking and making decisions for yourself is irrelevant, and the family and religion takes precedent over everything. Some followers of Islam seem absolutely unwilling to change and it is unfortunate that these people hold the top positions in parts of Islamic society (EG Wahibbists and the Mullahs of Iran) It seems alien to them to embrace more liberal ideas, for instance rights for women, the right to choose your partner (for women) the thought of being independent and living how you want to live.

Is it safe to say that it is the older generation keeping them in toe with what they were brought up in? Or is this new brash of fundamentalism what the younger generation have decided to embrace themselves?

What would be needed to start a revolution in their thinking and way to get hardliners to approach new ideas? Would it take something drastic for this to happen or would it come gradually? Is there any example of this? I’m not talking about governments changing, but the whole of Islamic society to take in new ideas.

In my opinion it just seems the whole society is, (ok, I know this is a cliche but I’ll use it) a volcano waiting to erupt.

This has been discussed on the boards many times before, but I’m happy to chip in again.

First of all, let me start by saying that I’m a Muslim and an Arab. I’ve been living in the UK nearly all my life, and I consider myself to be fairly devout, although by no means perfect. :smiley:

As such, I think I can give you a fairly good impression of what the average young, moderate, “Westernised” Muslim male is feeling, but I cannot presume to answer for those living elsewhere.

There are a lot of points raised in your OP, but let me start by saying that Islam is not monolithic. There as many different schools of thought, interpretations of the Quran, schisms, factions and sects as there are in any other religion.

Some of those factions seem to have become more militant and outspoken in their opposition to the US, but they do not represent the majority.

Mullahs do not rule the lives of Muslims the world over, not do they dictate their actions. Mullahs have no legal authority except in the strictest form of theocracy (only Iran comes to mind).

As Islam has no equivalent of the Pope, no central ecclesiastical figure to pass bulls or arbitrate on all matter religious, Muslims are free to follow or disregard the teachings of any one Imam or Mullah as they seem fit, and according to their personal tastes. Fiery, vitriolic Imams wil always attract the misguided, the deperate, the angry and the disposessed, but they hold little sway over those moderate Muslims who make up the vast majority.

And what do you mean by “More secular and orthodox”. Seems to be a contradiction in terms if you ask me.

Sorry I meant more ‘inward looking and orthodox’ what I’m trying to get at is that what the West has experienced, the sexual and cultural upheaval of the 60’s whether it can be transplanted to Islamic society I don’t think that can happen.

I’m glad to hear that Islam is subject to the same kind of internal factionalism that other faiths have experienced - not because it’s divisive, but because it shows we’re all human.

You assert that the militant factions are a minority. Is that really the case - are they not gaining in membership/acceptance (let’s not debate the reasons, just trying to assess the truth)? Even if they remain a minority, they are clearly one of, of not the most active and vocal segments of Islam. Until the more moderate (and if you are correct, more numerous) segments of Islam become equally vocal and active, the non-Muslim world will continue to perceive the whole of Islam in the light of the vocal militants.

If Islam is not dominated by militancy and fundamentalism, when will the “true” believers tire of being “spoken for” by their not-quite-brothers in faith?

Do some Muslims agree there is at least some culture of fear in their society? Which stunts the growth of the liberal movement to some degree?

Islam was created in part as a mechanism of control of Mohammed over the unruly arabs of his time. That creates a bent towards centralized authority… towards obedience to authority.

When the Mullahs and the rulers are more interested in keeping their positions safe it surely means Islam tends toward the conservative. Should rulers and priests have a more liberal outview then Islam can become more tolerant and open up to a point. When that can happen is harder to determine.

 Iran curiously I feel will be the first example in some time of opening of an islamic country. Younger clerics and some more liberal ideas should help open the country a bit.

In contrast... remember that the Catholic Church is still VERY CONSERVATIVE... no women priests, no sex out of marriage, no birth control... women as secondary citizens overall. Its the total disregard for the Vatican that helped propel western europe to modernity. Especially the protestant nations.

Islam was once very tolerant of other religions and pretty open... being a cultural and scietific power. Maybe a modicum of prosperity and stability might bring that back ?  Hard I know.

Christianity is about 500 years older than Islam. If you go back 500 years in time, you will find many, many Christian countries that were as oppressive or even more so than the typical Mid-east Muslim country today. Most of the Christian world discovered seperation of Church and State a few hundred yearrs ago. Perhaps if the Muslim world can embrace that concept (speration of Mosque and State), a more liberal Muslim world can emerge. I really don’t think it’s any more complicated than that.

Good question. I think you’ll find that as far as the sexual “revolution” is concerned, most Muslims would frown on premarital sex, not because their morals are stuck in the fifties, but because they sincerely believe that traditional monogamous relationships and family values are the way to go.

Muslims are by no means alone in this view, and their values with regard to sex and the family are no different than those of devout Christians.

Essentialy, if you believe in God, and God said that sex should be restricted to a loving marriage, than that’s what you do. Or at least try to do (ahem) :smiley:

And what exactly should we be afraid of? That the religious police will come knocking? Yes, I will be the fiirst to admit that practices such as “honour killing” and female circumcision do occur, and that they are vile and abhorrent, but all too often cultural practices such as these are mistaken for religious ones. They have nothing to do with doctrinal Islam, and many who live in a “culture of fear” do so because of the culture, not because of Islam.

Yes, I agree that some of the more militant factions are gaining members - mostly angry and idealistic young men who feel that Islam is under attack from the US, and that the fire-and-brimstone imams are the ones with the answers. Like all angry young men, they are tired of protesting the perceived injustices that they see done to the Muslim world every day, and they are determined to finally do something about it.

However, misguided as some of these young men may be, it is easy to see why they feel the way they do. Like many young Muslims, I believe that past US foreign policy has done much to create the current situation, and that current policy has done much to exacerbate it.

And I will hasten to add that moderate Muslims do speak out against this type of violence every day - they just don’t make the headlines as much as those who are calling for blood and hatred. Organisations such as www.cair.com have always denounced terror in every form, and I think you will find that their voice is much closer to that of the average Western Muslim.

Having said that - I understand the need to distance ourselves from wackos and nutjobs, but why should Muslims be expected to constantly apologise for the actions of those violent few, and why should Muslims be called upon to constantly “prove” their patriotism?

Since 9/11, Islam has come under much closer scrutiny across the wrold, and we have all, in effect, become ambassadors for our Faith. It’s not all that fair, but if i can help fight some ignorance (SDMB style!) I think it’s worth the odd racist remark or two (or three or four…)

As a further point, one that hopefully a more learned person can elaborate on, is it not true that the current conservative nature of Islam (at least as we in the West see it) is as much a function of recent history as any aspect of the religion?

When Islam was founded/discovered/inspired it’s rapid spread was as much because people saw the beauty of it as because of any jihad movement. Women were granted far more rights under Islam than before it, laws were aimed at equal application, and social classes were meant to be dismantled in favour of equality all around. From the earliest times, Islam was enlightened, and deliberately encouraged open debate, science, and philosophy. Other religions were respected, and conversion was never forced. Mohammed’s teachings were very progressive for the times, and so many quickly came to see Islam as a bright light ina dark world.

Isn’t it also the case that there is no central religious authority like the Pope because Islam forbids it? I have read that the idea is that Islam is to be a religion of the people, a very personal thing that each Muslim is to believe in on his or her own, and to understand in his or her own way, that should be questioned for better understanding. The reasoning I have seen is that a central figure cannot claim to have any more understanding of the faith than any other, and so is unecessary. Correct me if I am wrong.

That said, history has hurt Islam badly. While, from my reading, the Crusades did not have that significant an impact on Islam as a whole, there were the massively devastating Mongol invasions, which left many Islamic societies decimated. After that came the Ottoman Turks, who were apparently (at least initially) far more oppressive than most Muslim rulers of the times (again correct me if I am wrong, I don’t claim to be an expert). These upheavals had a profound impact on the practice of Islam, and led Islamic peoples into a more inward-looking and conservative society. Add to that further occupation after the Ottoman empire fell by the West, and you can see where resentment would grow.

So isn’t it the case that while the West was redefining itself with individualistic philosophers like Spinoza and Kant and so on, separating the people from the oppressive reign of the Church, Islam was in a sense circling the wagons and looking inward, deliberately rejecting Western philosophy and becoming more concervative? The increase in Western hegemony can’t have helped matters, and it become more and more resented as Islamic nations were less and less wealthy in comaparison until they discovered oil. Suddenly the West was interested in the Middle East and Muslims felt the need to protect themselves from excessive Western influence (which they probably weren’t ready for). Add to that the shameful actions of the US in deposing a moderate, open government in Iran (in 1959?) and replacing it with the brutally oppressive Shah, who gave them sweet oil deals, and Anwar Sadat’s failed attempts to “Westernize” Egypt in the 70s that ended up leaving Egyptians with nothing and foreign interests with the best Egyptian business, and you can see where Muslim resentment has grown.

If I have read rightly, much of the conservatism present today in Islam is a direct attempt to counter this influence, because of the harmful interference throughout history of foreign powers, from the rise of Khomeini in Iran to the rhetoric we hear everday now. So the real question is, can Islam find it’s roots, remember it’s enlightened past and open up to new philosophies? Will this ever be done with Western influence, or do we just have to sit back and let it happen? I think Islam has it deep within to do this, but Muslims have proven to be doggedly resistant to outside influence throughout history. Do any Muslims reading this thread (especially living in a Muslim nation) see this occuring? Or do they even feel it is necessary? The great triumph of the West, in terms of power, discovery and influence, has been the enshrinement of freedom as a basic human right, freedom in every sense. Are Muslim nations likely to move in this direction?

Sorry for the long ramble, and if anyone wants to correct some facts please do. I hope I got the basics right.

Not so much a culture of fear, more like pressure to carry out obligation, even though it could go completely against their own views.

From what Salam Pax has said in the Guardian, its not the freedom and good economics that let the West win the world, it was the Wests application of organised violence that made it the dominant force it is today.

You mean, like the religious police in Saudi Arabia?

Perhaps, but the only reason this application of force succeeded is because of superior organization, weaponry and technology, all things that have developed throughout history more readily in areas where the free exchange of ideas and trade have occured (ie the West). You can bet, if Muslim nations were equally free and in on the exchange, that they wouldn’t have fallen so readily.

Since the problems associated with Western imperialism have already been discussed in detail, I’ll leave them alone. They’re certainly valid points, but I think writing off problems in the Muslim world as solely the fault of the West does a disservice to everyone involved.

I think the stagnation of Islamic societies has a lot to do with the power of the Ulama (community of Islamic jurists) and the Shariah (religious law.) The Shariah is supposedly based on Qur’anic injunctions and anecdotes from the life of the Prophet. About 1000 years ago, a Sunni scholar named Ibn Hanbal decided that the task of deriving wisdom from the Qur’an and Hadiths for the purpose of creating a law based on Islam was finished. The openmindedness that heretofore had been shown towards the Shariah - ijtihad - was considered closed. The Sunni Ulama went along with it, and of course hasn’t changed its position since. Orthodox and fundamentalist Muslims view many western ideas as bid’a, or attempts to change the word of God.

There are two groups that I know of that think differently - the Hashemites and the Shias.

The former, based in Jordan (think King Hussein), do not consider the debate closed, and have founded universities inside Jordan and abroad to compete with Saudi fundamentalism. Jordan has a functioning parliament, a very reform-minded King and Queen, and overall a much more liberal society. They’re Sunnis.

Shias are slightly different - the way the Shariah is viewed in Iran is evident simply by looking at the difference between Teheran and Cairo. Iranian Shias, for theological reasons that I’m not very well versed in, do not consider debate on the Shariah closed, and like the Hashemites, have a much more modern (westernized, if you must) society than do most of their Arab neighbors. Iran has its problems, to be sure, but women enjoy a greater degree of freedom than in other parts of the Muslim world, and the current reformist president was elected largely because of women voters.

So, to answer your question, yeah. In my opinion, it’ll take a lot of time, determination on the part of groups such as the Hashemites, and a more mindful US foreign policy. It’s important to recognize, in any case, that a modernized Islamic society may not resemble the secularist West - and it doesn’t have to.

It is in fact a reaction to historical development after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, combined with the failiors of governments to make dreams come true after being liberated from colonisations.

This is an intertwined and complicated issue, but to say it simple: Some came to the conclusion that all of this happened to the Muslims because they failed to be good Muslims. Thus the idea “Islam is the solution” was born.
This idea then proved itself also to be a failior in many ways. (Look for example at Pakistan, a nation that was formed “in the name of Islam” yet is one of the most destabilized and in my view one of the most difficult to stabilize itself).
Which led on its turn to even more radicalisation by separated groups defending each an agenda and their interpretation of the ideology. By now these ideas, even when still differing on some issues are almost all in one way or the other influencing eachother and/or are intertwined with eachother.

A good study on this issue is this one:

A Political Economy of the Middle East.
Second edition
Alan Richards and John Waterbury
Westview Press, Oxford/Boulder, Colorado
ISBN 0-8133-2411-4

You are almost right. But the issue is not that nobody can claim to have more understanding of the faith, because people ask advise of scholars every day, and this for the most common daily questions.
The issue is that nobody can claim to understand Al Qur’an - which is considered to be God’s message - completely and thus nobody can claim that his exegeses is “it” and should be followed by the whole Muslim world.
That is why I had myself already so many discussions with Christians about their Church hierarchy and -institutions. And more specific about their claim that the Pope is infallible in religious matters and that priests can “forgive” sins = play the intermediate between the Catholic and God as if they know how God would judge sins.

Your view on Islamic history is a very good one. There are several voices that claim that the Mongolian invasion was not only a catastrophy for the people, but also for Islam. They were not the only ones. Mu’awiyyah, the first Ummayad caliph was - among others - already the cause that the appointment of the caliph by a majority, after which he still had to prove himself to be the best Muslims possible, was replaced by inherited caliphate.

About the crusades: They had a greater influence then one should discover at first view. Not in the least because they managed to become a unifying factor in the fractioned region. Which wasn’t exactly the aim of the Crusaders, and was not in the minds of the Muslims either when they saw them for yet some other - this time very wild and weird - mercenary army of the Byzantines.

As for the Ottomans, they weren’t all that more oppressive then others but they came in a position that made them able to control everyone else in practise, if that is what you mean.

All this however wasn’t that influencial on the way the common Muslims were Muslims. Much more significant for the way Muslims looked at religion were the ideas developped by Muslim philosophers (and the way the most interesting among them were oppressed by which the medieval Muslim philosophy died a silent death) and the development and settling of the law schools.
Those law schools influence Islam and Islamic societies, and the way people practice religion and intertwine it with local culture upto this very day.
That is where the change has to start, and I can assure you that the contemporan philosophers and many people in the Muslim world think and reason more “liberal” then is perceived in the West. That is also the case in the MENA region (on which most people in the West focus their attention, forgetting that there lives only a minority of the Muslims worldwide) although when living in the West and looking at the evolution there from the outside, one shouldn’t say it is the case.
Salaam. A

I witness it here once again that people have a very incomplete view on how Islamic states are structured. I’ll give you a short introduction. Having done this already for an other message board, the sweat of translating myself while making at the same time and understandable synthese is already dried.

State Structure and Shari’a

During the life of Muhammed, law and jurisdiction of the Umma (Islamic society) was joined to the person of the Prophet.
To organize the state after his death, his absence and thus the absence of his leadership in those matters was from in the very beginning a problem. In fact: there are not that many prescriptions for that matter given in Al Qur’an.

Solving this among the scholars led to what is known as the Sunna of Muhammed, which is the tradition of his way of life (= behaviour) and to the Hadieth, which is the tradition of Muhammed’s sayings, decisions, actions in general, thus also about state organization and jurisdiction.
With Al Qur’an as first source, those traditions were used to establish the Islamic Law, As-Shari’a, which covers everything, from religious duties over family and personal life until state organization and its Law system.

This was an extremely brief explanation about what was developed during the first centuries of Islam, with on the way the developing of the education in this law, resulting finally in four recognized Law Schools we still know and who are influencing one or several Islamic countries, depending the Law School that particular country follows by developing it’s own state organization and founding its own state laws on.

Islamic countries are in their State organization and Laws just as different as the Western countries differ from each other.
So there is no singular “Islamic” state representing the whole Islamic World or a whole religion.

There is only one thing that can be considered as a completely reliable representative of our fait, and that is Al Qur’an while we consider that as the word of Allah.
Followed in this by Sunna and Hadieth, but still they merely remain the words of humans and as I explained: in the matters of State organization and Law, the great differences among the Islamic countries resort in their different Law Schools and above that the different way they introduce these teachings in their own Law system.

One has to take in mind by this that **the Shari’a is a guideline and not a decision model like in Western Law. **

The method as applied by the Shari’a knows two levels:

  1. Like in the Western jurisdiction: the definitions of the act of law and their consequences.
  2. There is no comparison possible in its expression of the religious character: the human behaviour is completely judged on its religious value in the hereafter.

On this day, the influence of the European system is introduced in practically every Islamic country and the prescriptions of the Shari’a have only a reduced validation.
If we talk about the importance of the Shari’a on the different law systems in the world, one can distinct globally four groups of countries:

1.some countries like Saoudi Arabia, where the Shari’a as was established by the school of Ahmed ibn Hanbal, now represented by the derivation of this teaching known as the Wahhabi movement, is the general law. Subjects not mentioned in the Sharie’a are regulated by the state, but can never be in contradiction with the Shari’a.

2.Turkey, where the law is completely secular and the Sharie’a doesn’t have any influence on it.

3.Countries where the law is mainly secular and based on the European laws but where family- and heritage and the law considering religious foundations still is dominated by the Shari’a. This is then practically everywhere confirmed within the law, by which also reforms are introduced at the same time. This is for example the case in my country (we follow the school of Malik ibn Anas) where we have now recently formed a commission of religious scholars but under the lead of a famous woman to modernize the status of the women, which now still is regulated by articles influenced by the Muwatta while this results under family laws.

  1. Countries where these principles are practiced, but where besides that the Shari’a also has an indirect influence on other domains of the law, for example in an article in the constitution which specifies that the principles of the Sharie’a are the most important source of law.
    Salaam. A

I find this far from the case among most Arabs I know (particularly Gulf Arabs) - males - of all ages.

“Adultery” - in terms of finding a girlfriend outside marriage - is EASIER in Islam, because a man is allowed a second, third and fourth wife. Therefore, men have a semi-excuse to date outside marriage (although it’s not supposed to work quite like this).

Divorce is also much, much easier (at least for a man) than in the West. Islam - sensibly - has had recognition of and mechanisms for divorce built into it from the outset. Various financial settlement details are laid down in Sharia law, there’s no weaseling out of them - a man must support his ex-wife and kids. Because divorce is recognised, it has a degree of acceptability.

Maybe now the West, people don’t really blink over divorce. But a hundred - even fifty years ago - divorce was extremely hard to obtain, scandalous, and made tabloid news. The Catholic Church STILL does not recognise divorce.

As for premarital sex - yes, the hymen is highly prized for marriage. Such that Muslim girls have anal sex instead (and I’ve head this from both men and women) when they’re unmarried. They don’t all do it, but a lot of them do.

Istara,
What happens in your environment as you describe it, has nothing to do with Islam. A man can marry more then one woman. That is not having “sex outside marriage”.

I’m married twice. So in your opinion my second wife is a whore or is it in your opinion me who is the whore or what are you saying?
And it isn’t all that easy to engage yourself in such if you follow the rules of Al Qur’an. Besides that, multiple marriage is severely discouraged in several Muslim nations, among others in my country. In other Muslim nations it is even outlawed.

You are right about the divorce cases. It is for a woman still much more complicated to get one then for a man and the stigmatizing by society of divorced women is something that is very much alive, be it in much cases beneath the surface.

What you describe here about sex practices before marriage: I think you are extremely exaggerating. It is even a practice that isn’t condoned by the religion, so don’t link all you say to “Islam”. Link it to “culture” or “habits” or whatever you like.

What is common practice among young women is to visit a clinique to have their virginity “restored”. And there are also other and very simple tricks to mislead “the family” at the wedding night. Yet, all of this has in fact much more to do with cultural influence then with Islam.

Salaam. A

I think what Istaras getting at is that it is easier to cheat on your spouse when you are brought up in a society which practises and sometimes encourages polygamy.