Can it sometimes be patriotic to wish defeat on your own country?

[BrainGlutton]

In this thread – “How far to the left is MoveOn, really?” – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=295366 – it was pointed out that some Americans posting in this forum have wished victory to the Iraqi insurgents – a sentiment which, on its face, appears unpatriotic, even treasonous. But is it possible that those Dopers are actually being patriotic Americans? By the same token, is it possible that the Vietnam War protesters were no less patriotic (and maybe even more patriotic) than LBJ and Nixon?

On know-how-the-enemy-thinks principles, I recently was perusing a new right-wing screed by Hugh Hewitt: If It’s Not Close They Can’t Cheat: Crushing the Democrats in Every Election and Why Your Life Depends On It (Nelson Books, 2004). In the introduction he writes, “The book’s premise is quite simple: there are millions of people would would like to see the United States destroyed, or if not destroyed, then deeply wounded and humbled.” Which is obviously true so far as it goes, but it got me to thinking: Maybe a patriotic American ought to feel the same way – not in wanting to see America destroyed, of course, but in wanting to see it “deeply wounded and humbled.” That might be the best thing for America, and the world, in the long run. After all, if a beginner schoolyard bully gets pounded to a pulp by an even bigger badass, that is probably the best thing that could happen to him, and the best thing for society. That experience could make the difference between him growing up to be a happy and productive member of society, and growing up to be a career criminal who spends half his life behind bars – or not growing up at all.

Put it another way: Patriotism, national loyalty, is like family loyalty – a natural, human emotion based on love of the familiar. It is not based on any higher conception of ethics or morality. You are not loyal to your family because it is the best family in the world but just because, with all its faults, it is your own family; and you are loyal to your country for the same reason.

But, precisely because it is not based on any higher values, family loyalty must have limits. If your brother tries to rob a bank and there’s a shootout killing two guards and a teller, the loyal, ethical and honorable thing to do is visit your brother in jail and say, “You made a mistake but I’m going to stand by you. I’ll get you the best lawyer in town if I have to take out a second mortgage on my house.” Not, “Don’t lose any sleep, those creeps had it coming. Be ready, I’m getting some friends together and we’re going to try to bust you out of here tomorrow night.” The latter would be loyal, but not ethical or honorable.

And love of country also should have limits. Sometimes our governments act in unjust ways that are oppressive at home or aggressive abroad. When that happen, should you, as a patriot, not wish defeat to your country and success to its enemies? Is not Russia better off now than it was under Communism? And that’s because the Soviet Union suffered a defeat in a protracted Cold War. If you were a patriotic and rational Russian living under Soviet rule – should you not want precisely that outcome? In fact, might it not be a patriotic act to spy for the CIA, even though your own government would regard that as treason?

[XT]

@BrainGlutton

Which is obviously true so far as it goes, but it got me to thinking: Maybe a patriotic American ought to feel the same way – not in wanting to see America destroyed, of course, but in wanting to see it “deeply wounded and humbled.” That might be the best thing for America, and the world, in the long run.

As with your other thread currently running in GD, I find your thesis flawed. The patriotic thing an American can do is not wish for us to be ‘deeply wounded and humbled’ on the world stage…not only would that not be good for America but it would be bad for the world (even if THEY don’t think so) as well IMHO. The patriotic thing for an American to do is to fight for what they think is right, to protest if they feel strongly enough against the Administration, and to do what they can to get a new adminstration in the WH/Congress/Senate. I.e. to be a good citizen. If the majority of your fellow American’s don’t agree with your outlook then you need to do your best to change their minds about that using your rights of free speech as a citizen of the US.

@BrainGlutton

After all, if a beginner schoolyard bully gets pounded to a pulp by an even bigger badass, that is probably the best thing that could happen to him, and the best thing for society. That experience could make the difference between him growing up to be a happy and productive member of society, and growing up to be a career criminal who spends half his life behind bars – or not growing up at all.

Show me that America is being a schoolyard bully and perhaps you’d have a point. Least you forget, Iraq was not a place of sweetness and light prior to the US invasion…and Saddam was no nerd with glasses. He was a brutal and vicious tyrant. When America invades a Belgium then you might have a point about us being the school yard bully.

@BrainGlutton

Put it another way: Patriotism, national loyalty, is like family loyalty – a natural, human emotion based on love of the familiar. It is not based on any higher conception of ethics or morality. You are not loyal to your family because it is the best family in the world but just because, with all its faults, it is your own family; and you are loyal to your country for the same reason.

Put another way, each of us agrees to a social contract with our fellow citizens when we agree to live in this country. That is that we will be good law abiding citizens, that we will excersize our rights and participate in our government by voting as we feel we should…and abiding by the decisions of the majority. You may not agree with that majority, and you can do whatever you feel you must, within the bounds of the law and your rights as a citizen to change both the minds of the public and the administration in power.

George Bush has been re-elected president. You and I may think thats not a good thing. We may think that his policies, especially with reguards to Iraq, are wrong. However, HE is president by the will of the majority of the people. Wishing ill on America is short sighted and foolish IMHO…in 4 years there will be another government in power. It MIGHT be a government YOU like next time. Do you really want them hobbled by your “deeply wounded and humbled.”, unable or afraid to do anything good at all for another decade or so a la Vietnam? Just because you, personally, don’t agree with the present administration?? Really?

@BrainGlutton

And love of country also should have limits. Sometimes our governments act in unjust ways that are oppressive at home or aggressive abroad. When that happen, should you, as a patriot, not wish defeat to your country and success to its enemies? Is not Russia better off now than it was under Communism? And that’s because the Soviet Union suffered a defeat in a protracted Cold War. If you were a patriotic and rational Russian living under Soviet rule – should you not want precisely that outcome? In fact, might it not be a patriotic act to spy for the CIA, even though your own government would regard that as treason?

Love of country should have no limits. Doesn’t mean you should be blind to bad things our nation does. PART of loving THIS country is to excersize your duty as a citizen and vote for the person you think is best…and to protest when you think your nation is doing wrong. Thats PART of loving your country BG…don’t you see that?

-XT

[E-Sabbath]

Stephen Decatur never said, “My country, right or wrong.” He said, “Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right, and always successful, right or wrong.”

I don’t think wishing defeat is patriotic. Wishing wisdom is. Of course, I’m of the personal perspective that while there always two sides to every story, eventually, I will be one one side or the other, and I will do my best to be sure my side triumphs.

[BrainGlutton]

@xtisme

The patriotic thing for an American to do is to fight for what they think is right, to protest if they feel strongly enough against the Administration, and to do what they can to get a new adminstration in the WH/Congress/Senate. I.e. to be a good citizen. If the majority of your fellow American’s don’t agree with your outlook then you need to do your best to change their minds about that using your rights of free speech as a citizen of the US.

Show me that America is being a schoolyard bully and perhaps you’d have a point. Least you forget, Iraq was not a place of sweetness and light prior to the US invasion…and Saddam was no nerd with glasses. He was a brutal and vicious tyrant. When America invades a Belgium then you might have a point about us being the school yard bully.

Perhaps I didn’t make this clear, but what I’m proposing for debate is a principle in general terms, without reference to any particular nation or any particular situation: “Sometimes it is patriotic to wish defeat on your own country.” The U.S., like the Soviet Union, is used here merely as an illustrative example.

@xtisme

Put another way, each of us agrees to a social contract with our fellow citizens when we agree to live in this country.

Errmm . . . no, we don’t, x, no more than we have such a contract with the family into which we happen to be born.

@xtisme

PART of loving THIS country is to excersize your duty as a citizen and vote for the person you think is best…and to protest when you think your nation is doing wrong. Thats PART of loving your country BG…don’t you see that?

-XT

Absolutely. That works for an American under our present system. But what you’re describing is not an option that would be open to my hypothetical Russian patriot, is it? On the other hand, spying for the CIA is something he could actually do that might, in the long run, help his country.

[XT]

@BrainGlutton

Perhaps I didn’t make this clear, but what I’m proposing for debate is a principle in general terms, without reference to any particular nation or any particular situation: “Sometimes it is patriotic to wish defeat on your own country.” The U.S., like the Soviet Union, is used here merely as an illustrative example.

Well, I can’t speak for other countries except theoretically. Perhaps sometimes it is best to wish for defeat of your nation. If you want to talk strictly theoretically and this isn’t a backhand way to talk about the Bush administration, then I guess that there are some extreme instances where this might be the case. Nazi Germany for example.

@BrainGlutton

Errmm . . . no, we don’t, x, no more than we have such a contract with the family into which we happen to be born.

Completely and utterly disagree with you here. Its a basic tenet of democracy that we all agree to abide by the will of the majority. You can’t change what family you are born too…you can certainly change your citizenship if you are that opposed to the will of the majority.

@BrainGlutton

Absolutely. That works for an American under our present system. But what you’re describing is not an option that would be open to my hypothetical Russian patriot, is it? On the other hand, spying for the CIA is something he could actually do that might, in the long run, help his country.

Again, if you are talking hypothetically, I agree…sometimes you don’t have input into your system, in which case I can certainly understand why someone might wish for the fall or defeat of their government…as I said earlier, Nazi Germany would be a good example IMO. I took your OP differently than you obviously intended so I’ll jump out here and see what happens.

-XT

[Mr.Moto]

What this boils down to me is the fact that, in war, lots of Americans are being shot at.

There’s a big diffewrence between wanting America out of said war, and hoping the other side beats us on the battlefield.

The latter choice would essentially be wishing death on your fellow countrymen, and doesn’t seem patriotic to me at all.

[Wesley_Clark]

The Germans who attempted to kill Hitler considered themselves patriots since Hitler was a mentally ill leader and inept war leader who ignored and overruled his generals. Removing him from power was for them a way to make Germany a respectable nation again and help them win the war.

In the US there were some military people who considered treason against Bill Clinton to be a form of patriotism.

[devilsknew]

Yea, Fall in step BG we are without blemish, don’t you get that? If we mobilize and kill A-Rabs then damn if that isn’t what our God appointed leader needs us to do… bottom line. Get with the program.

Patriotism is blind to morality, that’s the message.

Don’t question in these dread times…Ha!!
You know if we really had something at stake, if we actually had something to lose, if more people could really feel this and relate to something other than a couple of thousand “acceptable losses” then xtisme might not be so gung-ho. Your point is well heeded, The one with power without impunity excercises that power without compunction. The very fact that this war means prosperity and increase for our economy and an oil hegemony is the biggest signifier of its injustice.
It is greed and wrath that motivates… all else is the self-serving soothe of the bully with manufactured justification.
Actually, I’ve heard better stories on the playground…

[BrainGlutton]

@xtisme

If you want to talk strictly theoretically and this isn’t a backhand way to talk about the Bush administration . . .

It is and it isn’t. That is, I started thinking about this proposition long before 9/11, in the context of the Vietnam War protests. The Iraq War merely gives it more contemporary relevance.

@xtisme

. . . , then I guess that there are some extreme instances where this might be the case. Nazi Germany for example.

I probably would have mentioned the Nazis in the OP, but this forum seems to have grown a little overly sensitive about “Godwinization.”

@xtisme

Its a basic tenet of democracy that we all agree to abide by the will of the majority.

Irrelevant. It is a principle of democracy but not of patriotism. Most countries are not, after all, democracies, now or at any time in the past.

@xtisme

You can’t change what family you are born too…you can certainly change your citizenship if you are that opposed to the will of the majority.

I want you to think long and hard about that statement until you realize how ridiculous it is.

[BrainGlutton]

@Mr. Moto

What this boils down to me is the fact that, in war, lots of Americans are being shot at.

There’s a big diffewrence between wanting America out of said war, and hoping the other side beats us on the battlefield.

The latter choice would essentially be wishing death on your fellow countrymen, and doesn’t seem patriotic to me at all.

What about my hypothetical Russian patriot? Might it not have been patriotic for him to wish death on Soviet Army troops in the field – including, perhaps, some of his own closest relatives – if that would lead to the ultimate victory of the West and the liberation of his own country?

[BrainGlutton]

@Wesley Clark

In the US there were some military people who considered treason against Bill Clinton to be a form of patriotism.

!!! News to me! Cite?

[kellner]

Not surprisingly, I would argue that there are indeed times when it is your duty to wish total defeat on your country.
“My country, right or wrong” was what kept many Wehrmacht soldiers fighting.
The closest thing to war heroes that we have are the few who broke their oath and tried to kill their leader and supreme commander. Everybody knows they were not successful, but they knew it was their duty to try:

The assassination must be attempted at all costs. Even if it should not succeed, an attempt to seize power in Berlin must be made. What matters now is no longer the practical purpose of the coup, but to prove to the world and for the records of history that the men of the resistance dared to take the decisive step. Compared to this objective, nothing else is of consequence.

– Generalmajor Henning von Tresckow

[Wesley_Clark]

@BrainGlutton

!!! News to me! Cite?

This was what I gathered from personal conversations, and I wasn’t recording my personal conversations that day i’m sorry to say.

[Hail_Ants]

Speaking strictly within semantics, the answer is no, you cannot.

Patriotism does not refer to one’s race, religion, party, or ethical principles. It simply refers to one’s country. The generals who attempted to assasinate Hitler were not doing so to bring about complete military defeat to their country, in fact quite the opposite. That’s exactly what they were trying to prevent (or greatly lessen). Because in the end that’s what Hitler did deliberately wish for. If he didn’t survive Germany didn’t deserve to.

By the same token, is it possible that the Vietnam War protesters were no less patriotic (and maybe even more patriotic) than LBJ and Nixon?

I’m not old enough to remember them first hand but I tend to believe that, by and large, they were mostly lazy, cowardly, spoiled, middle-class white kids with too much free time and too much free drugs.

[David_Simmons]

I don’t think you’re going to get much agreement with your thesis. Understandable? A remote possibility? Patriotic? Only by a pretty tortured definition of the word.

I see what you are getting at but I think your solution is a poor one. I would much rather argue that we should switch to a parlimentary system so that as soon as members of Congress wake up we can get rid of GW, Rummy, Wolfie and on and on without waiting until 20 January 2009.

[BrainGlutton]

@Hail Ants

I’m not old enough to remember them [the Vietnam War protesters] first hand but I tend to believe that, by and large, they were mostly lazy, cowardly, spoiled, middle-class white kids with too much free time and too much free drugs.

None of which, if true, would make them unpatriotic.

[BrainGlutton]

@David Simmons

I see what you are getting at but I think your solution is a poor one.

But I am not here proposing any “solution.” I am proposing a general ethical proposition for debate.

[XT]

@devilsknew

You know if we really had something at stake, if we actually had something to lose, if more people could really feel this and relate to something other than a couple of thousand “acceptable losses” then xtisme might not be so gung-ho. Your point is well heeded, The one with power without impunity excercises that power without compunction. The very fact that this war means prosperity and increase for our economy and an oil hegemony is the biggest signifier of its injustice.

I’ve got family deployed to Iraq and a son in the Marines who will probably be deployed there this year. How about you big guy? Next time ask before shooting off your mouth if you don’t mind.

Besides which, you totally missed the OPs point. No real mystery there…

-XT

[The_Tim]

It can’t be patriotic to wish defeat on your country. Patriotism is a transplanted love, a devotion to the symbols of the nation that maintains the link with the promises those symbols represent and the other people who respect those symbols. With the severing of those rational links we find nationalism. Because any defeat is a threat to the strength of the nation, to its image, and to its symbols a patriot cannot allow for the nation’s defeat. If a damn fool war is engaged in the patriot wishes a safe withdraw, not a defeat.

It is possible to wish defeat on one’s country without crossing the vast neutral ground between patriot and traitor, but dwelling there requires a callousness towards lives and an insane optimism. Defeat nations, historically, have much to fear from those that defeat them. Do you think that if America is wounded by defeat it won’t draw others to strike? Do you honestly believe that if America were to show a wide open front that there would be no one in the world ready to exploit it? Do you think America is going to receive mercy?

Defeat is not a good thing for nations. The lessons of defeat are not well learned and like a child beaten for being a bully a wounded nation harbors the evils it is brutally punished for closer to its heart. Nations are reformed by ethical individuals within them, those willing to take the long view, make hard decisions, and fight to preserve the nation’s strength along with its virtue.

[XT]

@BrainGlutton

I want you to think long and hard about that statement until you realize how ridiculous it is.

Re, this:

@BrainGlutton

You can’t change what family you are born too…you can certainly change your citizenship if you are that opposed to the will of the majority.

Enlighten me BG…I don’t see it. You can’t change what family you are born too. Check. If you really don’t like the country of your birth, you can change it. Check. As a former citizen of Mexico I’m intimately familiar with this.

Whats ridiculous?

@BrainGlutton

Irrelevant. It is a principle of democracy but not of patriotism. Most countries are not, after all, democracies, now or at any time in the past.

They are intertwined as far as you OP with reference to the US. I already said that if you want to talk about other countries then what I said doesn’t hold. However, in THIS country, if you are a patriot but you disagree with the direction your nation holds you do things within the system…and you don’t wish ill on the nation just because its not doing what you want it to do. You abide by the will of the majority and do everythign you can within the system to change the perception and leadership of the nation. Why is this irrelevant with reguards to OUR system BG?

@BrainGlutton

I probably would have mentioned the Nazis in the OP, but this forum seems to have grown a little overly sensitive about “Godwinization.”

Well, I don’t really think this necessarily falls into the ‘Godwinization’ formula, but I call a spade a spade…and the Nazi regime certainly falls into one I could agree with your OP on.

@BrainGlutton

It is and it isn’t. That is, I started thinking about this proposition long before 9/11, in the context of the Vietnam War protests. The Iraq War merely gives it more contemporary relevance.

Protesting the war in Vietnam was the right and even the duty of those citizens against it. Wishing we would lose the war or be thrown out of Vietnam though is something else again. You protest because its your right and even duty if you feel strongly about it…so that you can change the minds or perception of the people or the administration, or to create enough of a perception among the electorate that they election a new administration the next time that is more sympathetic to your ideas.

I’m all for that, as I was all for those Americans who protested Afghanistan and Iraq, even if I didn’t agree with them about Afghanistan or even Iraq at the time. As I said before its both their right and their duty if they feel that strongly about it. Wishing ill though on the nation, wishing we would lose so we’d be humiliated, etc etc…no, thats not patriotism as I define it in THIS country. YMMV though BG…it often does.

-XT