Depending on how one takes “damned,” the meaning of that sentence changes quite interestingly;)
For me it depends on the meaning of “disagree” and the manifestation of the same. My sister firmly believes that homosexuality is … various unkind things. She also knows that telling me this (again) would serve no good purpose. She also stands up against people who made crude/bigoted comments. She also makes no discriminatory effort with those of us who aren’t straight and I’d be extremely surprised if she did.
The important things to me (personally, and I suppose for purposes of this thread) are one’s willingness to discuss openly and one’s openness to differences of opinion (and, of course, how much energy one devotes to manifestation of disagreement). But that’s the case for any number of topics:)
I’m an atheist and I think gay sex is icky… even though I love having anal sex with my girlfriends. I have gay friends and it doesn’t bother me if they suck dick… nor if my female friends do it either. I also think eating seafood is icky… I didn’t kiss my GF when she ate shrimp for example.
Still I don’t think I “disagree” with homosexuality… its just not my choice of sex… like seafood isn’t my choice of food. From reading this thread I certainly think differently about anti-gay bias possibly being legitimate. Its when its outspoken and militant that it becomes “not nice”.
OK, back years ago when I was going through my self-styled Hindo-shamanistic Buddhist phase (with a twist of Islam), on my way to work I stopped for dinner at Taco Bell, spotted three of my coworkers whose shift started earlier than mine, and joined them at their table. As I was eating and enjoying their company, I was hit with the sudden realization that “I am the only heterosexual person sitting at this table.” The thought struck me as incredibly funny for some reason, and I had to bite my lip to keep from cracking up laughing.
Fast forward twelve years. I am now a believing and practicing Catholic. My religion teaches me that homosexual relations are a sin, but gays don’t choose their orientation, and should be treated with respect and dignity. So if I were to happen to walk into a Taco Bell and find these same three people there, I would join them at their table and enjoy their company…
Well, clearly I’m not equating ‘stupid’ with ‘wrong’. I was using ‘stupid’ to mean, for example, an opinion that may not be fashionable now, but which may well have been fashionable in the past and may well become fashionable at some time in the future.
I am a passionate believer that truth is not manifest. In other words, I do not believe that truth is easily uncovered, or revealed. I do not believe that all we need is to remove the wool from people’s eyes for them to see the truth that was hidden from them before.
There are two main problems (virtually equal and opposite) with the idea of ‘manifest truth’ - which I’m not accusing you of holding, by the way - for which I owe a debt to Karl Popper. In fact, I’ll quote him:
“Again and again, even with quite simple things, we hold the truth in our hands and do not recognise it. And still more often we are convinced of having recognised the manifest truth while in fact we are entangled in errors.” (The Myth of the Framework, p. 203, 1994)
I believe you are right to be sceptical about motive and intention. It can never be stressed enough that we can’t understand other people’s motivation. To quote a source even greater than Popper:
“For man looks at the outward appearance, but God considers the heart.”
hhmm… kind of true… but more of a “don’t ask - don’t bother”.
I don’t think people can become 100% without discrimination… to expect that is just as wierd as expecting gays to hold back their own sexuality ? I’m a bit pragmatic about things. Your a bit homophobic ? Not nice… but just shut up and its a good start. No ? Not perfect of course.
Hopefully of course in the future we will be discussing the acceptance of something else… and gays are fully integrated to society. Until then its a step at a time.
Nitpick: You can’t “agree” or “disagree” with homosexuality. It is not a hypothesis, assertion or belief system, it is a behavior and a psychological orientation. You can “reject” homosexuality in the sense of not taking part in homosexual activities, or you can “disapprove” of homosexuality on moral, esthetic, or other grounds. (Or, you can stop living a lie . . . )
There are always going to be things we’re not going to approve 100 percent about one another, no matter how nice anyone is. It’s how we TREAT others that counts, does it not? Actions speak louder that words may be cliche, but it’s true.
Sorry. In my OP, I meant “disapprove.” (Although I believe it is possible to disagree with homosexuality in that one may disagree that it is a natural phenomenon. That person may not be right, but he/she is right according to his/her flawed understanding of how the human body and sexuality work. Perception versus reality.)
I do not like celery. The idea of eating it is disgusting to me. I do not have sex with men. The idea of doing so is disgusting to me. (I can’t exactly say that I don’t like it, because I have never tried it. I have tried celery.) However, I recognize that there are people who like to eat celery and do so regularly. I also recognize that there are men who like to have sex with other men and do so regularly.
In spite of my own personal tastes, I don’t claim that people “ought” not eat celery or that men “ought” not have sex with other man. To me there is nothing either “nice” or “not nice” about having different preferences from other people. It would be the arrogant presumption to believe that other people should be making choices based on my personal tastes, rather than their own, and it would not be nice. Believing that people are “wrong” to do things that I don’t prefer to do is not nice. If I discover that someone is a homosexual, assuming that it is my place to approve or disapprove of their preference is not nice.
That said, I have never known a person who was completely nice or who was completely not nice. I’m not sure that just knowing someone disapproves of homosexuality is enough information to make a general proclamation about whether they are nice or not nice. However, I do think it counts against their overall niceness “score”.
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