Can "higher" animals "think"?

Bantmof is almost certainly right…problem solving behavior is certainly a form of thinking. (Several humans of my acquaintance could use this talent! :frowning: )

I do not enjoy the “my cat/dog/rabbit/goldfish is so smart that…” type of post. However, I have to give one apropos of this topic:

About 15 years ago we had a small mixed-breed cat (father pure Siamese, mother a stray) who over a span of several months developed a series of calls used for specific needs/wants that gave every evidence of her attempting to learn English words. We did not attempt to teach her these; it was, so to speak, her idea. E.g., she would stand at the door and give a “aaoouuu” call that appeared to be “out,” at the refrigerator and use “eh-eh-eh-ew” for milk, near the cupboard where her cat food was kept and call “ooooooo” with an indescribable throaty stop at the end that appeared to be mimicking “food.”

I have no idea if she was trying to use English words. But it sure sounded like it.

No, I think bantmof is almost right, but maybe it’s just that I want to quibble about the meaning of the word ‘abstract’.

Many of the posts here seem to be talking about verbal or mathematical reasoning as the only “real” thought, while denying the abstractness of other forms. This seems wrong. ‘Abstract thought’ means, I think, the ability to build a mental model (an abstraction) of some aspect of the world, and then manipulate it internally. That definition says nothing about the form of the model; it could be verbal, or it could be as visual as some of those ‘rotate the blocks’ questions on IQ tests, or it could be something completely different.

If we define thought that way, then some of the behaviour described in the article linked above does look a lot like thinking. (The hidden-orange con is really good here.)

That said, there are also a couple of warnings about such observations:

  • Watch out for Clever Hans. He was a horse who could do arithmetic by stamping his foot to count out the answer - as long as the questioner already knew the answer. See, for example, http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dps1rwk/comp1.html .
  • Be careful about projecting your own style of thinking onto somebody you can’t talk to. Even things we know aren’t thinking, like computer programs that run on random numbers, can seem to do something intelligent from time to time.

Bob the Random Expert
“If we don’t have the answer, we’ll make one up.”

Abstract thought is certainly not the only form of mental activity; there is problem solving, learned behavior, memory, emotions, instinct, and others. Many of these are exhibited by animals other than humans. But I’d say that abstract thought is the hallmark of intelligence. And I’ve never heard any conclusive evidence than any non-human species is capable of abstract thought and virtually every human is.

No animal (other than man) will ever think the equivalent of “If I had a million dollars, how would it change my life?” Any human could answer this question (or its cultural equivalent) but no other animal could make the projection of their own life into a situation in which they have no experience or any reasonable chance of acheiving. An animal’s mental horizon does not extend past their experiences and environment, only humans can go beyond this into the abstract world of fantasy.

Bah. I’m sure people will say that I’m anthropomorphizing dogs, but have you ever seen a dog dream? I’m talking barking, whining, flinching, kicking, etc… Ferchrissakes I’ve even seen a dog have a wet dream. If that’s not fantasy, what is?

A dog dreaming is most likely remembering experiences from its own life; chasing squirrels or getting it on with a French poodle. My point is that humans are the only animals that can think about things that are totally outside of their own life experiences.

I would ask Polycarp how his ex-cat, since she was half Siamese, got along in speaking Thai.

And Mike King appears as the typical American, thinking = planning how to spend $1,000,000.

Yes, I think agreeing on where to draw the line “thinking”/“non-thinking” is the only issue. As far as I can see, it’s almost always drawn in circular manner: I think; therefore I am human. . .and vice versa.

Certainly one can’t ascribe a high status to dreaming – either by humans or dogs. It’s just a clean-up exercise by the brain. There is no central control (notion of an operator’s intention). I surely wouldn’t call it fantasizing.

What I want to know, though, is how humans know that a dog can’t “does not extend past [its] experiences and environment,. . .” Did dogs tell them?

McGruff (You think I can’t sniff you guys out?)

Non-human animals are probably not capable of abstract thought, but then, neither are children: that kind of thinking doesn’t emerge until adolescence. I think most of us would say that kids can think, even if not as well or in the same way as grown ups. Likewise, if Grey Parrots have the intelligence of a four or five-year-old child, then they must think, too.

Cats think, but don’t let us know, because they think communicating with a lower life form is beneath them.


		Bruce

Now I’m going to have to get my typical American gun and shoot you.

If it makes you feel the argument is being posed on a more intellectual plain, you can substitute the following question: “If I were invisible, how would it change my life?”
My point was not that humans are the only intelligent animal because they can think about money; my point was that humans are the only intelligent animal because they can think about an abstract condition that is unrelated to anything they’ve ever experienced.

I would say that the fact that humans are the only animals that consider the possibility of other intelligent species is one more proof that humans are the only intelligent species.

It’s possible that dogs are in fact thinking complex abstract thoughts and just not bothering to externalize any of them. It’s also possible that the Earth is just an alien experiment and white mice are here to observe the results and that the answer to all of life’s mysteries is 42. But if you want to make these arguments you had better produce some evidence.

[[My point was not that humans are the only intelligent animal because they can think about money; my point was that humans are the only intelligent animal because they can think about an abstract condition that is unrelated to anything they’ve ever experienced.]]

and …

[[I would say that the fact that humans are the only animals that consider the possibility of other intelligent species is one more proof that humans are the only intelligent species.]] MikeKing
Putting aside the semantic issue of how intelligent one must be to be “intelligent,” how would one go about proving or disproving the facts upon which these statements rest?
[[“What I want to know, though, is how humans know that a dog can’t “does not extend past [its] experiences and environment,. . .” Did dogs tell them?”
It’s possible that dogs are in fact thinking complex abstract thoughts and just not bothering to externalize any of them. It’s also possible that the Earth is just an alien experiment and white mice are here to observe the results and that the answer to all of life’s mysteries is 42. But if you want to make these arguments you had better produce some evidence.]]
Er, I was just thinking along similar lines …

Mike:

That $1,000,000 isn’t really “unrelated to anything they’ve ever experienced”, just bigger. I doubt that humans can think of anything that’s totally unrelated.

Bob the Random Expert
“If we don’t have the answer, we’ll make one up.”

I have no idea whether the premise is true or how we’d know if it was, but you seem to have a very binary view of intelligence: either something has it, or it doesn’t. I don’t agree. I see it as a continuum, not a binary value - i.e, the proper question to ask is how much intelligence a species has. It seems pretty clear to me that non-human species still have intelligence. That humans are (apparently) the smartest species overall doesn’t imply that every other species has no intelligence at all. They sure seem to exhibit the signs of having at least some.


peas on earth

If the facts were accumulating as fast as the opinions, we’d be making some real progress here. As far as I know, no one has ever come up with a generally accepted definition of intelligence, so it’s not surprising we are unable to agree on what species have it. Rather than continue to rehash the differences between our respective positions, I’m opting out. Unless someone has something new and significant to add to this discussion, you’ll have to carry on without me on this subject.

Ook…er, I mean, so what would happen if we tried to teach the other apes math?

aseymayo, this article, portions of which are quoted below, appeared in the Globe & Mail on 10/23/98:

Monkeys can count up to nine and can discriminate between groups of objects in ascending order.

Two researchers at Columbia University in New York report in the journal Science today that two rhesus monkeys called Rosencrantz and Macduff have proved that animals can think, even though they have no formal language.
. . .Elizabeth Brannon, said: “Though monkeys do not recognize the word ‘two’ or the numeral 2, they share with humans the ability to master simple arithmetic on at least the level of a two-year-old child. We don’t have direct evidence yet, but it seems likely that these monkeys, and other non-human primates, can count.”

Chimpanzees are humans’ closest animal relatives. Rosencrantz and Macduff are distant cousins. Yet when presented with 35 sets of images on a touch-sensitive screen, they learned to handle them in an ascending order.

They touched one square, two trees, three ovals and four flowers in that order – and were rewarded with a banana-flavoured delicacy. If they got the order wrong, the screen went black and the game began again. But they carried on playing with their touch-screen fruit machine and ended up performing what researchers described as “cognitive serial tasks” without any more instruction from the scientists.

“It’s like using your password to get money from a cash machine, but it is actually much harder for the monkeys,” Mr. Terrace said. “The pictures, and their position on the screen, change each time they try for another pellet of food. When you go to a cash machine, you don’t have to deal with the numbers being in strange positions each time. We ask a lot, cognitively speaking, of our non-human primate subjects.”

Having gotten the hang of one to four, the newly numerate monkeys were then tested on a different set of images, showing objects from five to nine. They did just as well. They could only have done this, the researchers say, if they had learned some numerical rule for ordering the contents of the pictures.

The examiners got tougher. They showed Rosencrantz and Macduff pictures with five and seven objects in them and asked them to touch them in ascending order. They did. “It shows that monkeys know things about numbers that we haven’t taught them,” Ms. Brannon said.

The latest research focused on a problem first raised by French philosopher Rene Descartes more than 300 years ago. He argued that “abstract thinking” required language, which made humans different from all other living things. Biologists have never been sure of that: Animals may not have conversations, but they quite clearly communicate with each other.

For a while anthropologists argued that humans were different because they used tools. But zoologists pointed out that tool-using, too, was quite common in the animal world. Since then the debate has focused on difficult-to-define ideas such as “consciousness” and on particular social behaviour using symbols or sounds.

Polycarp: I’ve had a similar cat experience. Some friends of mine had a cat that seemed to recognize English words (one time, when someone said the word “spider” in casual conversation, the cat’s ears pricked up, and he ran out of the room and came back with his favorite toy, a pompom spider) and to understand the idea of property (when my friends left food out on the table, he would mess with the food of the guy who didn’t like him and leave the other two guys’ food alone).

Now, this cat was smarter than any cat I’ve ever had, and I’ve had some pretty smart cats (one learned to silence a bell that we’d hung on her to warn birds away, another, like you described, developed a distinct “I want to go outside” meow, but neither did anything that couldn’t have been the result of a simple instinctive adaptation). So if we accept this cat’s behavior as “thinking,” I’d say that some cats are capable of it, but probably not all. Maybe they’re the borderline case: less evolved than cats, no thinking; more evolved than cats, thinking.

A dog is probably on the level of a 1 or 2 year old human, but has more memories. It does not have a sense of time. Everyone knows it takes only a few hours for a dog to forget it had behaved badly. And time stops for a dog while you are at work.

Ruff! Ruff! Ruff! Arf! Arf!

               WANTED!

As a typical American victim of gunplay, my master was found shot today by some guy who said he was gonna take his ball and go home. I think his name was ‘Mike’. He said he wanted more facts. Well, Sgt. Friday is now after those things, such as where he hangs out, Ma’am. He is believed to look like this:

http://www.nkfm.org/safari/1997sum/clown.jpg

But the American saga continues: I just got his PIN number off the I’net, and with the help of a dog stool, I’m gonna get out as much of the $1,000,000 in his bank account as I can count up to. Those dang chimps who snag all the write-ups on intelligence – well, if they can’t count past nine, I’ll show them!

And, BTW, here’s what Time says on the subject of what animals are thinking about these days:

http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,30198,00.html

Back to how a certain human thinks:

Guess I just don’t unnerstan’ those folks out on the “plain[s]”. ‘Out of sight, out of mind,’ I guess. Woof! Woof!

I talked to his pet just the other day. She said she had considered that many of his fellow beings seemed to be intelligent, but that she was having a real problem applying that description to him. She also said that he had never asked her if she had done this, so she didn’t know how he had concluded that she hadn’t done this. She said she had published her ruminations on her Web page, but she says she knows Mike is not too computer literate. . .that he is still working on the non-computer version.

I thought it was 51.

Well, I still have to go with bantmof: Intelligence is a matter of degree (but not a college one).

But all these stories about intelligent cats. . . Gimme a break! Rrrrrrrruff!

Ray’s dog

And just to drive my points home:

What I think of human intelligence.

Ray’s dog

Since the higher the animal is the less oxygen there is in the athmosphere I would say… “the higher the animal the less it thinks” :smiley:


The wisest man I ever knew taught me something I never forgot. And although I never forgot it, I never quite memorized it either. So what I’m left with is the memory of having learned
something very wise that I can’t quite remember. -George Carlin

Do animals have souls?