If you think I’m asking this question because of Saudi Arabia’s vast oil wealth, you’re right. The other component is their extreme fundamentalist version of Islam which I would like to see moderated or degraded.
Okay, the question itself: is there a possibility for us to go into Saudi Arabia under a similar circumstance as Iraq?
If not, could we use economic coercion to gain soft power over them, as we are attempting to do in Iran and Cuba (it seems unsuccessfully, although more time is needed to tell for sure)?
I tried to edit the post but I apparently can’t anymore. To clarify, when I say westernized, I mean having a Western friendly government put into power ala Iraq (I know Iraq is not westernized yet, but give it time).
The problem in Saudi Arabia is not the government–it’s the hard-line clerics.
When King Abdullah took the throne, he very, very quietly began a program of “moderization.” But it took him about 5 years to ease out enough of the clerics before he could even begin to do anything else.
No. Not while the “Saudi” part remains anyway. That’s the meaning of the name: the part of Arabia ruled by the House of Saud. The House of Saud came from Nejad and conquered the other surrounding kingdoms. Their power depends on the deal with the clerics. That goes, the power goes. Already, the various constituent parts feel as different as possible. The Hejaz is on the Red Sea and has trading links with the rest of the world going back millennia. Despite what most Americans might think, Jeddah is different from Riyadh, which is very different from Dammam.
I can see the country breaking up before it becomes more “liberal”. Then, it’s constituent parts will have their own social fabric.
Yeah, the OP has me a bit confused. Saudi Arabia is simultaneously one of the most repressive governments on earth AND a staunch U.S. ally. We’re not going to do anything to forcibly “westernize” them because we don’t as a rule go around invading allies.
Some people seem to have some cognitive dissonance over the fact that politically retrograde SA is a firm friend of convenience with the land of the brave and home of the free ( despite the stark evidence of Saudi Arabia’s numerous Kentucky Fried Chicken franchises ). If you had grown up in the 1970’s and seen the kind of jerkwads we were buddying up to back then, you might have less confusion. Pinochet, Marcos, the Pahlavis, RENAMO, Alfred Stroessner - the list goes on and on. The United States international diplomacy has always run on amoral realpolitik.
Do you think those parts would be along Shia/Sunni lines? Or has history learned from India and Pakistan that dividing a country by religion is no guarantor of peace?
If westernization were to include democracy, that would probably lead to a much less “western-friendly” government.
The US is pressuring Saudi Arabia to change some things, like reducing the gratuitous intolerance toward other religions in their school textbooks. To the extent that they listen, they mostly care about stopping “radicalized” people from turning against KSA.
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen.” The People said, “And also on our Najd.” He said, “O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham (north)! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen.” The people said, “O Allah’s Apostle! And also on our Najd.” I think the third time the Prophet (ﷺ) said, “There (in Najd) is the place of earthquakes and afflictions and from there comes out the side of the head of Satan.”
There’s no convincing evidence that the US efforts to impose a Western friendly government in Iraq are working or ever will. At all. Last I heard the whole project was going backwards rapidly.
Yanno, if you are on a train that is taking you in the wrong direction, there comes a point where it probably becomes reasonable to start asking if maybe it is never going to turn around and start towards the place you want to go. Cuba’s been subject to sanctions in excess of 50 years. Unsuccessfully as you admit.
AFAICT, imposing western values on non-western countries never works, except to galvanise opposition to the goal.
Can I suggest something? Next time you have any thoughts along the lines implied by your OP, imagine this: A powerful country with an alien culture tries to impose its values (or a government with its values) upon the US. How do you feel about that? Are you going to adopt the imposed values (or government) or fight them tooth and nail? Try taking your answers to these questions, and assuming that the citizens of Iraq, Iran, Cuba and Saudi Arabia are likely to feel the same way and wise the hell up.
Absolutely. As soon as we’re a fully hydro-electric/hybrid country. No oil whatsoever. That would take convincing billionaires who are rich because of oil to stop dealing in oil. So, 7,000 or 8,000 years.
I don’t think that’s correct. I think you are confusing “invasion and mass migration” with the type of scenario envisaged by the OP. No doubt if there was a massive settlement of Americans in Saudi Arabia that would change the local culture.
The British ruled India for about 200 years. By the end of that the Indians had kept their own culture, religions and language albeit English-tinged in some respects.
Just to nitpick, but in the case of the Muslim conquest of the Middle East, North Africa, Spain and the Balkans, there really wasn’t a lot of mass migration. It was primarily a combination of repression and coaptation of local elites.
Saudi Arabia pisses me off because they’re total hypocrites. They are ***already ***Westernized and have been for at least a couple generations. And its because they know that the West got it right. It’s like Imperial Japan after WWII but with them still paying lip service to their silly book of fairy stories. And the only reason they even do that is NOT because of any devotion to the tenants of Islam, but rather so that the Saud family can retain an unassailable stranglehold on absolute power. They’re like a massively wealthy DPRK except with radical Islam instead of radical socialism.
A couple of decades ago, Oman was even more extremist than Saudi in terms of its politico-religious extremism. The Sultan simply became enlightened and turned things around, and now it is a highly westernized culture. All it takes is somebody to do it. King Hussein of Jordan did the same, but less dramatically, a few decades earlier.