Can Scientology ever become a mainstream religion?

[ambushed]

It’s just occurred to me that, even though the statement was couched in an honest joke, it might be a violation of GD rules to have referred to Monty as touchy, so I retract the statement and apologize.

[Derleth]

@ambushed

@Derleth

There is really no comparison between the CoS and any religious organization.

Personally, I think comparing weird religions (or, if you prefer, religions that are widely thought to be weird) that managed to go “mainstream” with Scientology – a weird religion that hasn’t yet managed it – is valid and useful in this thread and is entirely relevant to the OP. And if a religion is “bashed” by discussing it’s doctrines, beliefs, and history, then what isn’t “bashing” a religion?

Did you read what I said? I mentioned the CoS, the ORGANIZATION, not Scientology, the RELIGION. I have been very consistent and explicit on this point multiple times, and I would enjoy it if that were recognized.

@JRDelirious

[aside]Wonderful, I think we’re on the way to having the whole “Religion, Bad!” crew aboard on this one. I was afraid we’d be stuck with those who claim that it’s bad only if the religious organization acquires any wealth.[/aside]

I hope you aren’t including me into this group. I think religion per se is neutral, neither good nor bad, but I think some of the things it has historically been associated with are very evil indeed. For example, I think unthinking obedience, historically very much associated with many religions, is the source of a good deal of mankind’s worst problems. To put it in Abrahamic terms, unthinking obedience is the Original Sin.

@Martini Enfield

@Derleth

All religious people are loony. That’s what faith is.

I’m not a religious person at all, but I certainly wouldn’t go so far as to call ALL religious people “Loony”.

Loony is a very imprecise term, true. How about delusional? They believe things that have no grounding in verifiable fact, they act on those beliefs, and they attempt to create extended folie à deux relationships.

Even if we take the concepts behind most organised religions as being prima facie patently silly (“Stop that! It’s silly! This was a perfectly good thread about an organisation recently featured in a controversial South Park episode, and now it’s just gone and gotten silly!”), the tenets of Scientology- and, to a lesser extent, the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, just seem… well, I struggle to understand how ANY sane person could consider them as the Gospel Truth for even a microsecond.

Yet you have little problem with the tenets of Buddhism or Shintoism? If you look, you can find completely unrealistic and unnatural things in every faith. That is why faith is needed.

I mean, let’s be honest here- if L. Ron Hubbard’s work can be used as the basis of a belief system, are we going to see the Church Of The Prophet Harry Potter soon? How about a Church Of The Sacred Towel? The whole thing just seems absurd and more than a little unsettling, IMO.

Again, there are millions of people around the world who think a loving father is good and just in sending his child to be nailed to a piece of wood. Even worse, they have a history of obeying the people who told them that to the point of immolating people ostensibly over doctrinal differences so narrow outsiders have a difficult time understanding the distinction.

[Gleena]

@ambushed

But Monty is pretty much always touchy when it comes to defending his rather bizarre religion :D, if perhaps not as touchy as most Scienos. I believe that the CoS and the LDS are too directly comparable in looniness if not in many other ways for Monty to take any criticism standing down (but I guess I can understand that).

As you point out in a later thread, I perhaps should not have used “touchy” myself, I was just unprepared for the tenor of the post that followed.

I also think loony is a bit harsh. I should out myself as an atheist and former evangelican Christian who did a bit of study about the LDS as a way to counteract the things I was taught in my church about them. The Scienos forced themselves on to me as I have a child who has a mental illness and thus, since they saw fit to demonstrate at the clinic I was taking him to at the time (years ago), brought themselves on to my mental radar.

Look, people believe what they believe and I think that’s fine. I’ve long since decided I have issues with zealots of any stripe, include my fellow atheists.

The OP wishes to address if the CoS can become mainstream. I pointed out and still believe that if they do what the LDS has done - i.e. tone down the stranger parts of what they believe, cover their tracks in regards to the original teachings of Hubbard, and manage not to shoot themselves in the foot in the way that they seem to love to do, stop causing people to be harmed (warning, shrill, baiased assertions there with an underlying truth), then they might - just might - go mainstream with enough tincture of time.

The underlying silliness of the belief, be it Xenu or Moroni or Jesus or Vishnu or whatever, really has nothing to do with whether or not a religion can go mainstream. Basically, I think a religion has to fit in with the prevailing lifestyle of the community, not stand out TOO much, and give people what they want out of it - some guidance in a big, scary world - and it will do just fine.

But if the CoS continues on its present path, its a scandal and a lawsuit that even it can’t control waiting to happen. As it is, they have sued its major critics out of business or its critics have shot themselves in the foot, so we shall just have to see what happens.

Cheers,
G

[Monty]

@Gleena

As you point out in a later thread, I perhaps should not have used “touchy” myself, I was just unprepared for the tenor of the post that followed.

{I’ve done some snipping of **Gleena’s last posting because I’m only responding to a couple of points she’s made.}

Thanks to both you and ambushed for that apology. I accept it, of course. The “tenor of the post that followed” was due to the assertion that the LDS church charges for its services. It doesn’t.

Look, people believe what they believe and I think that’s fine. I’ve long since decided I have issues with zealots of any stripe, include my fellow atheists.

I agree with you completely on that.

The underlying silliness of the belief, be it Xenu or Moroni or Jesus or Vishnu or whatever, really has nothing to do with whether or not a religion can go mainstream. Basically, I think a religion has to fit in with the prevailing lifestyle of the community, not stand out TOO much, and give people what they want out of it - some guidance in a big, scary world - and it will do just fine.

Yep. Some folks think that the benefits people get from religion, any religion, is of no import. I think that’s what it 's all about: the bennies.

Now, about prevailing lifestyle. The religion could change to fit the society or the society could change to fit the religion. In either case, the two come together.

[Stan_Shmenge]

1. They evidently don’t want to be considered mainstream/orthodox.

No, they just want to “Clear the Planet” or in non Hubbardian English: Join us or DIE!

They will NEVER be a mainstream religion for the simple reason that only people with fairly profound psychological disturbances remain in the church for long, therefore their membership is self-limiting numericly and since they are all crazy they will never be able to achieve their goals.

Do you realize that the original building they have on Hollywood Blvd. (the one with the famous green “Scientology” neon) has been standing empty for over a year with no sign of work being done? Are they crazy? It was probably their best recruitment point on the entire West Coast if not the “planet” because of all the foot traffic it gets from the nearby Hollywood and Highland development, but they can’t get their act together to remodel the first floor. And you know what? They had JUST COMPLETED A VERY NICE REMODEL OF THAT BUILDING WHEN THEY IMMEDIATELY GUTTED IT AGAIN FOR NO APPARENT REASON. They had a “test center” there and raw meat was coming in the door. Now the test center is half a mile down the street and they have no traffic and they just stand ouside all day and stare at the people partying and leading normal lives in all the new clubs and shops and eateries that are part of the new Hollywood. None of the tourists make it down that far, so there goes the chance to hook in some loser vacationing from Kalamazoo, and all the locals are hip to how stupid Scientology is.

They are all crazy. A sane person would not get much beyond the “talking to the ashtray” lesson:

Sane Scientologist (speaking to an ashtray):

“Stand Up.”

“Sit down.”

“Thank You.”

“I paid HOW much for this retarded bullshit?!?”

[diggleblop]

I don’t think so, I’ve heard nothing but bad things about Scientology, it’s followers and it’s leaders. Really bad things. But to each his own. I have nothing against anyone’s religion, but I don’t think it’ll get anymore mainstream than it already is today.