Can/Should Children be Taught Philosophy?

[DiosaBellissima]

I’m a high school debate coach who specializes in the more philosophy driven kind of debate and one summer, the (private) school I worked for put kids as young as 5th grade in my debate class. After my initial horror passed, I figured I’d just plow forward with my usual lessons, adjusting examples so the little ones could understand.

And you wouldn’t believe it, but those 5th graders not only understood the philosophy, but were able to debate it amazingly well. Granted, we’re not talking about anything too crazy- social contract theories, etc. Still, it was amazing.

Oh and it provided the best question I’ve ever, ever been asked by a student: Miss Bellissima, do ghosts have social contract? :D:p

[WordMan]

@CitizenPained

I think this is what my professors called a teachable moment. I hate to sound condescending, but I suggest you ask them to apply facts. That’s learning. You can teach them about black empires (an example would be nice) in terms of names and dates, but if you want the kids to understand, then they should be able to apply that info.

I would argue you are missing the point CP. It sounds like you are implying that **Nzinga’s **poetry and/or desire to emphasize African contributions in key topics, are somehow “not the facts.” I do not feel the need to make that leap - poetry and an emphasis on African contributions can be placed in a factual context, yes?

Hating to sound condescending isn’t helping your case, either.

[WhyNot]

@DiosaBellissima

Oh and it provided the best question I’ve ever, ever been asked by a student: Miss Bellissima, do ghosts have social contract? :D:p

Awesome. I assume you turned the question back to the class for discussion, right? What did they come up with?

[Nzinga_Seated]

CitizenPained, I know that I can’t teach philosophy through rote memory. You understand that, right? I know that and I’m not trying to do that. I have a friend who actually thinks they can learn to philosophize in a systematic way. Not like, just contemplating life, but teach them to think criticly and use logic to figure things out. I am not even convinced that very young children can do it. Maybe they can, though, and my friend wants to try. I was just asking Dopers if they think it can be done.

I’m not a teacher. I don’t think I am a teacher. I’m not trying to teach Philosophy.

I DO believe that knowing that there were African empires and what those were are healthy for little black kids who don’t get to hear about such things in school because the schools focus more on slavery. I think knowing those facts are good for kids, because it was good for me. Not applying my African knowledge and understanding where black American history and African history overlapped or didn’t. Just plain out, flat out, knowing the facts. Remembering the fact that yes, there were great Empires, was a great thing for me.

I do not labor under the illusion that I am a teacher. The parents don’t think that. The kids don’t think that. The point of the poetry they perform is simply to remember facts about black history, as we define it in our community.

Listen, forget about that part of it. Let’s focus on the part where we discuss if children should be taught Philosophy.

I think I am hearing yes!

[QUOTE=spark240]
I think it sounds great. Does the philosophy friend have much experience with children?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think he has experience with children, or with teaching! But he really seems to believe he can do it. He is excited.

Wordman, thanks for posting! By the way, Native Son was a most interesting book, was it not??

Nava, I couldn’t agree more about searching for knowledge being something we live our whole lives. What a journey, life is!

Diosa, you telling me that 5th graders can debate philosophy is blowing my mind. I am beginning to feel ashamed of underestimating kids.

[Rachellelogram]

Most parents do not want their children to know principles of logic. Example: “‘Because I said so’ is not a valid argument, that’s an appeal to authority, mom!”

I can see it backfiring. I wouldn’t teach philosophy to kids under the age of 15 or so. Logic is helpful in writing term papers or defeating an opposing side’s debate, but not to children. And not in the ghetto.

[WordMan]

@Nzinga_Seated

Wordman, thanks for posting! By the way, Native Son was a most interesting book, was it not??

It’s a shot between the eyes is what it is. Makes **The Stranger **seem like a cool Twilight Zone episode - nothing wrong with that for a good tale told around the campfire, but compared to the raw reality framed in Native Son? Phew.

[DiosaBellissima]

@WhyNot

Awesome. I assume you turned the question back to the class for discussion, right? What did they come up with?

They eventually decided that human ghosts have a social contract because, duh, they are humans and human nature is human nature whether you’re a living or dead human .

@Nzinga_Seated

Diosa, you telling me that 5th graders can debate philosophy is blowing my mind. I am beginning to feel ashamed of underestimating kids.

Don’t feel bad at all! I completely underestimated them, too. I think the trick is to be prepared to explain something 5000 different ways (so, it helps if the philosophy in question is something you truly understand) and they will get it. It was so awesome to hear these little tiny voices debating the conflict of individual rights vs states rights :).

[DiosaBellissima]

@rachelellogram

Most parents do not want their children to know principles of logic. Example: “‘Because I said so’ is not a valid argument, that’s an appeal to authority, mom!”

I can see it backfiring. I wouldn’t teach philosophy to kids under the age of 15 or so. Logic is helpful in writing term papers or defeating an opposing side’s debate, but not to children. And not in the ghetto.

I just saw this and I hope all of it (especially the end) is a bad joke.

Just so you know, the parents of the kids I coach love that their kids can rationally and logically discuss stuff with them. Most parents invoke “BECAUSE I SAID SO!” when their kid is making some irrational, crazy teenager argument to do something unsafe or generally stupid.

[brujaja]

I work in Oakland, and lived there for many years. I think that introducing your kid friends to philosophy is a wonderful idea, one that may well result in far-reaching benefit to everyone involved. As has been said upthread, critical thinking is absolutely pivotal to lifelong learning.

I also believe that discourse and introspection are, along with critical thinking, perhaps the three most valuable tools you can have in order to make sense of your experience, learn from it, and grow.

Here are a few of my favorite philosophical thought experiments (the first two are related):

The Ship of Theseus.

The Sorites Paradox.

Experience Machine.

Wikipedia has a huge amount of well-organized information on theories, doctrines, paradoxes, thought experiments, etc.; including lots of pages regarding the kind of focus you have.

Don’t forget to teach them The Philosopher’s Song! (Just kidding on that one, it’s Monty Python.)

[DiosaBellissima]

Speaking of philosophy lessons- the kids really dug the Allegory of the Cave for some reason. We took turns reading it, then talked about it bunches, relating it to stuff that was important to them, then I had them color pictures of what they thought the cave looked like. It was a nice way to introduce the idea of relative truth. When it got to the part about him coming out of the cave and being amazed, I noticed the kids didn’t quite seem to “get it,” so I said: “Imagine if you’ve never seen an animal ever, then you walk outside and there’s a freaking giraffe. Big, giant, weirdo giraffe. Think about how freaked out you’d be! But just because you’ve never seen a giraffe before or are scared by it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, right?” Just a thought :).

[Rachellelogram]

@DiosaBellissima

I just saw this and I hope all of it (especially the end) is a bad joke.

Just so you know, the parents of the kids I coach love that their kids can rationally and logically discuss stuff with them. Most parents invoke “BECAUSE I SAID SO!” when their kid is making some irrational, crazy teenager argument to do something unsafe or generally stupid.

It’s great that the kids involved in your program have supportive parents. Maybe that’s more common if it’s an elective program, but I can’t see it being generalizable advice. I was raised by poor, trashy, and uneducated parents who ruled with controlling iron fists. Most of my friends had similarly controlling parents. If I’d ever exercised principles of logic in an argument, my ass would have been exercised with a belt.

Philosophy skills are great in the classroom, but a lot of people have to leave that stuff at school to survive “in the ghetto.”

[DiosaBellissima]

@rachelellogram

It’s great that the kids involved in your program have supportive parents. Maybe that’s more common if it’s an elective program, but I can’t see it being generalizable advice. I was raised by poor, trashy, and uneducated parents who ruled with controlling iron fists. Most of my friends had similarly controlling parents. If I’d ever exercised principles of logic in an argument, my ass would have been exercised with a belt.

Philosophy skills are great in the classroom, but a lot of people have to leave that stuff at school to survive “in the ghetto.”

Believe it or not, not all of my students live lives where rainbows and unicorns fill their days. I’ve had to report shit more horrible than you could imagine. Yes, some parents are assholes, but if we don’t teach the kids valuable life skills (and the appropriate application of those skills), the kids will be doomed to be the miserable people that their parents are. I suppose it is easier to just wash our hands of the poor “ghetto” kids, but that really doesn’t do me any good as an advisor, them as the student, or society as a whole. How do you think people get out of the cycle of poverty/ misery/ abuse? They use education and, most importantly, thinking to get the hell out.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

@CitizenPained

edit: They should be writing their own poetry.

In love, this post was TL;DR. But thankfully this was the valediction, so I read it, and I concur.

Furthermore, many of the earliest philosophers of the Western tradition, including the pre-Socratics Parmenides and Empedocles wrote some of their major philosophical works in verse. Plato’s famous form, the dialogue, also exhibits philosophy’s literary, rather than analytic, origins (at least in my view). So your pupils would be in pretty good company.

[B.Serum]

Most children are taught philosophy. It just comes packaged with supernatural dieties and called religion.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

@rachelellogram

It’s great that the kids involved in your program have supportive parents. Maybe that’s more common if it’s an elective program, but I can’t see it being generalizable advice. I was raised by poor, trashy, and uneducated parents who ruled with controlling iron fists. Most of my friends had similarly controlling parents. If I’d ever exercised principles of logic in an argument, my ass would have been exercised with a belt.

Philosophy skills are great in the classroom, but a lot of people have to leave that stuff at school to survive “in the ghetto.”

Wait, are you in Nzinga’s class? Otherwise, I’m not sure I see the relevance of your upbrining to her question.

[Kozmik]

Children should ***teach ***philosophy. Tabula rasa be damned.

[B.Serum]

@WordMan

…I would also recommend Philosophy for Beginners- a history in comic book form…

This reminded me of another recommendation: the sublime, award-winning Action Philosophers!

[WordMan]

@B.Serum

This reminded me of another recommendation: the sublime, award-winning Action Philosophers!

Yeah, I bought it, too - I preferred Philsophy for Beginners. YMMV - I read PfB first.

I would also strongly recommend the Cartoon History of the Universe- not philosophy, per se, but accessible and full of wonderful concepts.

[zweisamkeit]

@DiosaBellissima

I suppose it is easier to just wash our hands of the poor “ghetto” kids, but that really doesn’t do me any good as an advisor, them as the student, or society as a whole. How do you think people get out of the cycle of poverty/ misery/ abuse? They use education and, most importantly, thinking to get the hell out.

Quoted for motherfuckin’ truth. rachelellogram, I’m sure you think you’re being all rational and “keeping it real”, but you’re not. What you’re saying is incredibly insulting and condescending (and also rather racist to boot).

“Teach kids from the ghetto about philosophy? Oh, you are a wonderful soul, wanting to do that but honey, listen to me: don’t bother. They won’t possibly benefit from any of it. Being “of the ghetto”, as we call it, renders one completely incapable of advancing in life. There’s no use giving them the care, attention and great learning experiences and opportunities that can positively impact their lives. All they can hope for is mere survival: nothing more, nothing less.”

(Also, the fact that you’re trying to school Nzinga on how “life in the ghetto really is” is hilarious. I remember previous rental threads you started that showed your pathological fear of, basically, any neighborhood with more than about 3 minority families).

[Farmer_Jane]

@WordMan

I would argue you are missing the point CP. It sounds like you are implying that **Nzinga’s **poetry and/or desire to emphasize African contributions in key topics, are somehow “not the facts.” I do not feel the need to make that leap - poetry and an emphasis on African contributions can be placed in a factual context, yes?

Hating to sound condescending isn’t helping your case, either.

Rote memorization isn’t the same as having the kids learn…contextualize…whatever…and I was just thinking, if she wanted the kiddos to take her content —not the adult paying attention— there are better ways to do it. She’s asking about philosophy because she has kids recite poetry.

@Nzinga_Seated

CitizenPained, I know that I can’t teach philosophy through rote memory. You understand that, right? I know that and I’m not trying to do that. I have a friend who actually thinks they can learn to philosophize in a systematic way.

they caaaaaan and dooooooooooooo. Look at a six year old’s language skills. They’ll add ‘ed’ to make something past past tense. “I gotted a bug on my foot.” That may be incorrect, but you can tell they’re trying to work out the ‘rules’ of the English language.

Six year olds have logic! If not, they need to be formally assessed. It doesn’t mean they have super deductive analytical skills. No. But they do reason and build facts upon each other.

Not like, just contemplating life, but teach them to think criticly and use logic to figure things out. I am not even convinced that very young children can do it. Maybe they can, though, and my friend wants to try. I was just asking Dopers if they think it can be done.

si, se puede.

I’m not a teacher. I don’t think I am a teacher. I’m not trying to teach Philosophy.

Fair enough. But teachers here are telling you it can (and is) done. Making kids aware of their thought process strengthens their skills.

I DO believe that knowing that there were African empires and what those were are healthy for little black kids who don’t get to hear about such things in school because the schools focus more on slavery. I think knowing those facts are good for kids, because it was good for me. Not applying my African knowledge and understanding where black American history and African history overlapped or didn’t. Just plain out, flat out, knowing the facts. Remembering the fact that yes, there were great Empires, was a great thing for me.

I’m not knocking you. I’m trying to understand where you are coming from and what the context is. Is your friend going to teach philosophy and you do your African poetry? Totally separate things? Maybe I misunderstood. But yes, they can and should be taught to think conceptually and critically.

I do not labor under the illusion that I am a teacher. The parents don’t think that. The kids don’t think that. The point of the poetry they perform is simply to remember facts about black history, as we define it in our community.

I werz confoosed.

Listen, forget about that part of it. Let’s focus on the part where we discuss if children should be taught Philosophy.

I think I am hearing yes!

Diosa, you telling me that 5th graders can debate philosophy is blowing my mind. I am beginning to feel ashamed of underestimating kids.

I was more put off by the idea that inner city kids weren’t capable of basic cognitive processes. Kant at six? No? Philosophy? Logic? Applied principles?

Yes.

@DiosaBellissima

Believe it or not, not all of my students live lives where rainbows and unicorns fill their days. I’ve had to report shit more horrible than you could imagine. Yes, some parents are assholes, but if we don’t teach the kids valuable life skills (and the appropriate application of those skills), the kids will be doomed to be the miserable people that their parents are. I suppose it is easier to just wash our hands of the poor “ghetto” kids, but that really doesn’t do me any good as an advisor, them as the student, or society as a whole. How do you think people get out of the cycle of poverty/ misery/ abuse? They use education and, most importantly, thinking to get the hell out.

A+