Can/Should Children be Taught Philosophy?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I have a group of kids who perform poetry. I write the ‘poetry’* and the children perform it.

The whole point of the poetry group is to teach the kids things that will give them a positive outlook on life and maybe plant some seeds that will keep them out of trouble. We spend a lot of time on Black History themes and staying out of trouble and rising above obstacles they might stumble upon in the ghetto.

I have always believed that children would probably benefit from learning some philosophy. Actually, I have always honestly believed that since a lot of poor**people don’t have the time to really philosophize deeply, they never try to instill those kinds of ideas into their children. I mean the idea of really studying the practice of contemplating existence and knowledge and even language and thought.

I have a good friend who has studied philosophy and has a formal education in the field. He has offered to teach the kids in my poetry group some basic philosophy themes. I love philosophy but I have no formal education in the field. He has offered to try to give me a better understanding of some of the most popular schools of thought and help me to work it into some of my poetry for the kids.

Is this a good idea? I always brief the parents about what kind of materials their kids will be exposed to, so that’s not an issue.

I’m just wondering if it is a good idea in general to teach kids philosophy. Do they have the ability to learn and internalize philosophy? Some of my kids are as young as 6. Can they learn skeptical thought? A systematic approach to rational thought and logic?

I know I never learned it as a kid, unless you count what I learned from my dad, who also never had a formal education. I went to a public school, though. I don’t really know if it is something that is generally taught in schools, but I did ask all my kids in the group if they know anything about it, and they didn’t. The kids are aged 6-14.

it’s really *bad poetry. I don’t know if we can really call it poetry. I admit I’m not good at it, but the kids really seem to love it.

** Not that my poetry kids are all poor. I just mean, inner city kids in general probably study philosophy less than other kids.

2

I think its a fantastic idea. When I was in 5th grade our teacher taught us mathematical logic, a brief intro to algebra and how to play chess. I can honestly say that was a turning point in my life. I advanced so much that year that when I was in 6th grade with a different teacher and school I was already way ahead of everyone else.

How to think critically is something that most kids do not get a chance to learn. You might run into problems with the children’s parents though. Sometimes thinking critically forces you to question deeply held beliefs, which is a good thing, but their parents might not think so.

3

They will philosophize in their heads weather you ‘teach’ them or not. Kids come up with their own logic and see how it works throughout their developmental years. It will change over time.

I don’t know when to not ask the why not/how come/*what if *questions. Any good teacher is going to throw out those Big Ideas. It doesn’t mean you teach six year olds what Kant, Locke, or whomever was saying. You just let them unravel the world as they see it and then ask then to put it back together after you’ve given them a new piece of information.

Just ask a kid why an apple falls from a tree, or what the purpose of life is, or how we got here, or why people go to war, or if they believe in E.T.s or whathaveyou, and you should get a variety of responses.

I don’t think formal philosophy is taught in most public schools, but you’ll find psych & soc classes in the upper grades. Physics has a lot of philosophy in it if you feel like teaching that perspective. Government/American History classes will cover some basic early American political philosophy. Eastern & Western Civ classes will do justice if they’re not taught by…well…not that I want to knock teachers, but if they’re taught in the way they’re meant to be studied, that’s philosophy right there.

Anything related to current events sparks some discourse that students probably won’t recognize as xyz’s ‘thought’, but they’ll make the connections if they go to college or ‘study’ philosophy. If you have 14 year olds then you can definitely start making some connections for them.

Not sure if Denver counts as ‘inner city’ or whatnot, but I’ve found that my brown students are more likely to think deeper about life than the pale ones. :o I’m just going to guess that their socioeconomic status would force them to rationalize things more. But don’t walk into a classroom and think, “These brown/black/speckled/green and pink striped poor kids need it to be dumbed down.” And don’t walk into a classroom and automatically think, “Oh we can’t [seriously] talk about race in here.” Teachers who do that need to hand in their resignations. (Not that you’re a bad teacher…maybe I just resent the idea that poor kids can’t rationalize.)

If you are talking about the formal study of philosophy, ah, well, no. That requires a certain level of reading + conceptual thinking skills + a desire to torture yourself with convoluted material (at that age, anyway). I don’t think anyone is all that qualified to ‘study philosophy’ without a degree of life experience, background in liberal arts, and sincere determination. My friend has a degree in philosophy and physics (under) and his doctorate in physics. It suited him well. I have another friend who was a philosophy major and is getting a Ph.D. (that’s Doctor of Philosophy, natch) in psych. Utilizing that ‘kind’ of thought process can get you pretty far in life.

I have philosophy discussions with my six year old all of the time. He just doesn’t realize it. His K class does a lot of “This is why things are the way they are” (head/smack) but they also do creative writing, so it’s not that bad. I mean, at his age, it’s kind of reading and writing and math right now. The school gets a little better at it in the older years. I guest taught some fifth graders there last week and wasn’t quite sure what to expect from a preppy white kid school, but they swamped me with their views (and respectfully argued with each other) and were jumping out of seats with raised hands and squirmy “Call on me!” faces.

They have a secular and religious studies program, so their “We came from Adam and Eve/Noah/Abraham” versus “We came from nature [evolution]” argument the first ten minutes of their genealogy discussion made me go :eek: in happiness. It would be nice if the ‘inner city’ kiddos down the street had that same kind of prep.

It’s not a matter of ‘Can they understand?’ or ‘Should they be taught?’

It’s a matter of what you are willing to do.

edit: They should be writing their own poetry.

4

+1

Students learn facts when teachers teach them. Students grow when teachers (quietly) guide. Students become* learners *when they can synthesize and apply.

5

This childrens book about philosophy topped the bestsellers lists in Holland and Germany for over a year. I say go for it.
Also, you could get then to read the e-book Harry Potter and the methods of rationality. A fan-novel, but very, very good.

6

perhaps the loose meaning of philosophy which is a guide to living, observing, understanding.

much of it are topics that universities forgot to STOP teaching, IMHO.

7

Philosophy is such a large term that the only real answer is, “sure…some of it”. Some of it does require a kind of analytical thinking that a 6 year old may not be capable of, neurologically, but some of it they just need someone skilled at concrete examples to get the ideas across. And, of course, it depends on the kid.

Most 6 year olds understand Utilitarianism - the idea that the ethical thing is the thing that produces the most good for the most people, for example. They’ve spent the last 6 months learning it in kindergarten, when they learn that when it’s Circle Time, they need to sit still and listen, even if they’d really rather, as an individual, be playing with Lego. They also learn that it’s not just numbers of people, but level of harm that need to be considered - when 29 of them would like to build peanut butter bird feeders, but one student has a severe peanut allergy, so they find a different project. At the beginning of the year, they do it because they’re told and punished if they don’t obey, but by the Winter Break, most can articulate WHY it’s a good idea, and that’s the beginning of Philosophy.

Generally speaking, when there’s a “should we try teaching this?” question, I think the answer is, “sure, why not?” I think we vastly underestimate what kids are capable of learning under the guidance of a good teacher.

8

Maastricht: I am mad excited about that book. I know my daughter will love it, and I think I will too.

CitizenPained: I hope I was clear in the OP that I’m not a teacher. I just have a rag-tag group of kids who I have memorize poems in the hope of making some facts memorable to them. For instance, one of the poems includes the names of blacks who have made great contributions to science. They are certainly encouraged to write their own poetry, and have even performed some of their own stuff at performances (my daughter’s poetry, for instance, is way better than mine). But I mainly have them learn my poetry, since that is where I am putting the info I want them to learn.

I also didn’t mean to imply that ‘poor people don’t philosophize’. I have had conversations with many boyz in the 'hood that left me standing there, eyes glazed, trying to applaud with one hand. I do notice though that most people in my circles haven’t been as keen on teaching their children philosophy in a more formal sense. It seems to be one of those areas of study that folks with money have more of a luxury of indulging in.

And I understand that it is a complex field of study. I don’t expect my friend to have a day with the kids and for them to come out deconstructing Plato. But I was hoping there may be a way to lay down a foundation that the kids can build on, in the future. Develop a foundation for reasoning and logic and rational thought. I am wondering still, is this something that very young children can even learn?

Automagic: I think teaching basic algebra and chess is a great idea.

WhyNot: I love that your answer to the question is ‘why not’.

9

Okay, well, the answer to your question is a resounding yes. Again, I still resent the idea that less ‘known’ variants of ‘formal’ philosophy is somehow inadequate for six year olds. Is one idea of Western philosophy invalid because someone else wrote about it 400 years prior?

Philosophy is basically arriving at a conclusion based on some logical thought. If a child can’t think in that manner by six, then he/she should be tested.

Why are you with these kids again? Confused.

10

I think the OP is trying to make this harder than it is.

Here’s a real life counter example for you.

I’m a librarian and I lead a twice-weekly storytime for little uns. These kids are from as little as 2 weeks old to about 4 years old. Part of my official storytime mandate is to “teach pre-reading skills.”

I have a whole list of 6 pre-reading skills (with big scary names) that I have to impart to these little buggers every week, and some of them can’t even speak yet! OMG! So hard! They’re too little to learn it all!

Well, ok, let’s break this list down and see what we’ve got.

  1. Print Motivation.

This means the kids like books, like reading (or being read to) and are internally motivated to be happy and content around books.

Ok, that one’s not so hard then - storytimes are fun and relaxed, and I pick interesting, engaging books to read. Ok, point one done! Yay me!

  1. Narrative Understanding.

This means the kids know what a book is, which way is up, that we read from front to back, and from top to bottom, left to right. They know that there is a beginning and an end to stories.

Well… ok, this one’s easy too. I hold the books while I read, so they see the pages flipping. I say things like “The End” when I’m done, and I sometimes point to the letters on the page as I go along if the text is big or interesting. So that one’s not so hard either.

I’m sure it gets more difficult. :wink:

  1. Print Awareness.

This one means that the kids have realized that the little squiggles on the pages have something to do with the pictures, and that they convey information.

A little harder, but still, nothing burdensome. I point at the text while I read, and read books where the text is in color, or interesting in some way, so it’s fun for them to notice it.

  1. Letter Recognition.

Knows the names and sounds of the letters of the alphabet.

God bless the Alphabet Song, that’s all I’m going to say. Between that and stories like Chicka Chicka Boom Boom, I’m set on this one!

  1. Phonemic Awareness

Understands that words and sentences are made of little chunks of sound, and can distinguish the sounds of those chunks.

This one’s scary. Still, all we’re doing is playing language games still. Old nursery rhymes and fingerplay games all introduce the idea of syllables, rhyming words, and interior rhymes. I’m still not using any official class materials here!

  1. Vocabulary

Knows and uses a wide variety of words and phrases.

Again - I read books. Lots of vocabulary there. No tests, no drills, just introducing good stories, and the words show up there!

Now, I discovered all this while doing storytime. At first, I was all intimidated, thinking I needed charts and drills and special types of instructional materials (none of which I had) in order to get this list taught so that I wouldn’t be violating my storytime mandate.

Over time, I realized that the idea of storytime in itself is really doing most of the heavy lifting. All those specific broken-down concepts are to make it obvious that we are actually accomplishing something already, not to *add *something to what we’re already doing.

Make sense?

The OP is seeming to think that ‘adding’ philosophy lessons requires, well, lessons. And it doesn’t.

Just think about what you want them to acquire from your time with them, and do fun things that will bring focus to that skill or knowledge set. Nothing official has to happen, nothing hard or class-skills like. Just because we have philosophy classes doesn’t mean that philosophy *has *to happen in class.

(sorry for the tl:dr, was in a hurry and had no time to edit down!)

11

I think that less ‘known’ variants of philosophy are great. Did I poo poo that? I didn’t mean to.

I’m ‘with these kids’ because I think that little black kids in this society have an uphill battle when it comes to seeing representations of their image. They go to school and learn history, but they may not learn about, say, any black empires of the past. I will work those empires into a poem and have them memorize it. Things like that. Their parents agree to this, so I guess the real answer to “Why are you with these kids again?” is because their parents think the poetry will be good for their kids. I am surprised you are confused. Unlike the riddles of the universe, it’s not hard.

12

That is my daughter’s all-time favorite book. She says it opened the door to philosophy for her. At 21 she knows far more than me about such things.

13

Good. So we can agree that the less ‘known’ philosophies these kids come from are just as valid.

They have an uphill battle when it comes to non African-American people looking at their image.

Um. Okay?

So you want them to know about various African tribes pre-colonization? Through…memorizing?

So teach them *good *poetry.

I guess I didn’t see why you were working with black kids in inner cities with poetry if you

  • were not paid to
  • were not a teacher
  • thought the poetry was bad.
14

I read Sophie’s World about 10 years ago and remember enjoying it, but given all of my more recent reading in the field, should probably go back and review it.

I would also recommend Philosophy for Beginners- a history in comic book form.

So - IMHO, here’s the deal: philosophy, at its most distilled asks core, fundamental questions, frames the history of how those questions have been approached over time, and presents current thinking and how to apply that in life. That stuff should ALL be “discussable” in a plainspoken way. The fact that it gets wrapped up in technical, self-referential “philosophy jargon” is what gets difficult. But there’s no reason that the fundamentals can’t be talked out with a curious kid…

15

I was learning some of those themes way before I took my first Philosophy class: “Intro to Philo” was in 11th grade, but “the Scientific Method” was in 6th, “Universal History” in 4th, we first started studying etimology (and learning for example the two roots “philo” and “soph”) in 5th grade…

The Kidlet’s class learns about a different culture (current or old) every year: this year they got “the Romans”, which includes being introduced to concepts such as “Monarchy”, “Republic”, “Democracy”, “Empire”, “slavery” or “polytheism”. He’s 5.

Not only do I think it can be very good for the kids if your friend is any good of a teacher, but you will also discover that “the search for knowledge” is something you’ve been living your whole life - just never (from what you say) in a formalized way.

16

I think it sounds great. Does the philosophy friend have much experience with children?

17

Just as a follow up: I don’t venture into Great Debates that often, but I stumbled across this thread, asking"Do Kant’s racist opinions render the rest of his philosophy suspect?"

Part of reading that was frustrating - I know enough about Kant to be dangerous, and the thread somewhat expects you to be grounded in the system he established to ground philosophical thought, which is his claim to fame.

But, ultimately, that thread boils down to a different question - namely, how should the output of flawed humans be approached, given the quality of the output and the extent of that person’s flaws?

Stripping away all the jargon, that’s an interesting topic to discuss with a bunch of thoughtful kids…

18

Oh! Ok. I understand.

  1. I do it because I feel there is a need. Black empires are just one example. A good example, I thought, because it was something that caused me some self esteem issues as a child. We learned about all the cool empires in History like the Roman empire, and Chinese Dynasties, and then when we talked about black people it was always…slavery. I want these kids to learn about more than that. I want them to remember it. My little ditties rhyme and they will remember it.

  2. I’m not a teacher, true, but in my community we do this stuff all the time. Teach eachother dance, or braid or whatever.

3.I’m not teaching the kids poetry. I’m teaching them some black history through bad poetry. I think it’s awesome if they learn good poetry, and I’m happy to expose them to some. I have performed good poetry for them. (I can recite lots of Lanston Hughes from memory). I have no problem teaching them to recite bad verse, though. My hope is that they memorize the facts and also learn to perform in front of an audience.

19

**Nzinga **- a great example is **Richard Wright **and the rise of Existentialism in the mid-20th-century. Euros like Camus and Sartre and even Kafka were conceptualizing about existentialism - how to deal with accepting the fact that there is no underlying meaning to our existence - so when Richard Wright published Native Son, they were blown away - it framed Bigger Thomas’ life in a clearly existential way. It led to a more realistic application of existentialism past the concepts discussed in academic circles up to that time. When Wright got to Europe he was lauded - he ended up staying there for a long time (died there?) similar to Josephine Baker and some jazz and blues players…

Does that help / speak to an example that might work in your community?

20

I think this is what my professors called a teachable moment. I hate to sound condescending, but I suggest you ask them to apply facts. That’s learning. You can teach them about black empires (an example would be nice) in terms of names and dates, but if you want the kids to understand, then they should be able to apply that info.

Dancing and braiding are examples of something that can be replicated. There’s African Dance (as we call it here) in Denver. Kids go, they learn, they synthesize, they perform.

Black African-American history or African history? The latter seems a bit too convoluted to put it into such simple terms.

Are you saying that African American history and African history/ies are the same thing? Or that one is an extension of the other?

Rote memorization isn’t learning…much of anything. It’s learning facts. I’m just saying as a teacher that if you want to do this in your community, then there’s a way to do it that’s backed up by pedagogy (and probably gives your kiddos added value).

I don’t know if you’re trying to teach them about African the continent history or history of people from said continent and all others who look like them American history or what. But what I do know is that in order for children to actually ‘philosophize’, as you put it, they have to take facts + apply.