Can someone explain Revelations to me?

Great Debates
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Jimmy 1,
I’m not going to argue with you. Mainstream scholarship is as I have described it. Two thousand years of Jewish scholarship interprets Daniel as I have described it. Finis Dake does not represent mainstream historical scholarship. It is , infact, most unscholarly to interpolate Christian predictive prophesies into Hebrew scripture. Such a view is simply not supportable from an objective historical view.

I am well aware of the minority of conservative Christians who interpret these texts as you have indicated, but to insist that most scholars interpret it that way is simply misinformed.

There is no Biblical support for a singular “antichrist” who is coming in the future nor is there any evidence that John’s antichrists have anything to do with the Beast of Revelation.

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Sorry, but I’m going to support Diogenes. In Revelation, the author borrowed the imagery of Daniel, including a ten horned beast that Revelation identified with Rome, but in Daniel, the ten horned beast is Greece. The four beasts of chapter 7 recall the four metals of the collossus of chapter 2, with the metals indicating the empires of the Babylonians, the Medes, the Persians, and the Greeks–with the Greeks being the fourth and final reference in each case.

I suspect that you have been limited to a fairly small cadre of authors who have followed Darby down his odd path. Can you find a scholar from Germany, France, Italy, or Scandinavia who supports that position? How many scholars supported this position prior to 1850? This claim of “most” biblical scholars is, I’m afraid, limited to a tiny handful of Americans with a couple of Brits, all of whom are already closely tied to the theology that Darby espoused and they do not constitute a majority of Christian biblical scholars (unless, of course, one redefines “Christian” to be limited to that handful of people who already agree with that position).

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RE Daniel Ch 7 ten-horned beast- scholars who believe Daniel wasn’t written till around 160s BC & doesn’t really predict the future say the ten-horned beast was Greece & the little horn was Antiochus (I will agree that the little horn from the goat in Dan 8 was Antiochus). Scholars who believe Daniel was written in the
500s BC & does predict the future tend to believe that the four-headed leopard was the Grecian Empire & it’s four-fold divisions and that Rome was the ten-horned beast.

However, the little horn among the ten could well be the Caesars, or even the Herods- it doesn’t have to be a future AntiChrist emperor.

Also, the whole seven-year treaty with Israel is based on applying the 70th week of Daniel 9 to the far future. An alternate view also held by conservative Christians is that the 70th week began with the baptism of Jesus around 29-30 AD, the “covenant with many” was his New Covenant, the midweek ending of sacrifices & oblations was his crucifixion which made the sacrificial system obsolete, and the week concluded with the opening of the Church to the Gentiles by Peter in Acts 10.

Now to the Rapture…

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Friar,
You present an accurate picture of conservative interpretations of Danel and Revelation, I would just like to point out that these interpretations are dependant on a belief in supernatural prophesy. This is an interpretation which cannot be debated logically (because Divine authorship cannot be logically disproven) but it is an obstacle from a purely historical (i.e. scientific) standpoint. The interpretations which I have described are logical within their historical context and represent the default perspective of objective (non-devotional) scholarship. I should have probably said that what I posted was the presumptive (and logically thoroughly defensible) conclusions rendered by purely historical criticism. In a faith based perspective, one is obviously not restricted from considering supernatural alternatives but it should be understood that supernatural intervention is required under those interpretations.

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Actually, if we found a copy of Daniel that DID date to the 500s BC or a copy of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 dating well before the 60s AD, it would give objective support to the idea of predictive prophecy & thus some sort of paranormal authorship or inspiration.

Alas, I’ll admit that no such copies have been found AFAIK, tho I will add the 70 Weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 convinces me as a Messianic Jesus prophecy.

My browser crashed yesterday when I was ready to get into the Rapture. Let me try now in a new post.

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The Rapture is the term coined in the mid-1700s & popularized in the 1830s dispensational system of John Nelson Darby, Anglican priest turned Plymouth Brethren preacher for the “catching up” of Christians in the air at the Return of Jesus. All of Christendom which teaches a real Second Coming teaches the Rapture in this sense, tho much of it does not use the term. (There is a fringe group among Preterist Christians who teach that there will be no
physical fulfillments of prophecy- that 70 AD was the Return of Christ, Resurrection of the Dead, Last Judgement & that all who die go into their Eternal Destinies complete with Resurrected Bodies while earthly human history toddles along with no great Divine interruption concluding it. In other words, this side of death, there will be no answer to the Big Qs.)

The Rapture in the dispensational sense is an event distinct from the Return of Jesus at “Armageddon”- and is based on the idea that the Beast/AntiChrist/Man of Sin will rule for three & one-half years or two times that (seven years total- the first half often seen as peaceful & prosperous, the second as utterly horrible)-
and that the Rapture occurs before entire seven years PreTribulation or 3 1/2 yrs before the Return MidTrib or at the conclusion almost simultaneously with the Return LateTrib or PostTrib.

Pre-Wrath is sorta between Mid & LateTrib. The popularizer of the term- Marvin Rosenbaum (Messianic Jew- yeah yeah, I know) puts it at the opening of the Sixth Seal & before the Seven Trumpets, other PreWrathers (I myself lean this way) put it at the
raising of the Two Witnesses & blowing of the Seventh Trumpet & before the pouring of the Seven Chalices (Rev 11, Rev 14-15).

Btw, I said I leaned this way- assuming that a futurist interpretation of Revelation is valid. I admit some compelling aspects to the Preterist & even the Historicist view (if the antiCatholicism in it is muted).

Looking at Jesus’s words in Matthew 24 from a futurist view, I think it’s definite that the Rapture happens late in the Trib-

  1. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
  2. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
  3. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Compare this to I Thessalonians 4 & I think it’s clearly the same event discussed-

  1. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
  2. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It’s kinda misleading thus to say the Rapture isn’t in Revelation at all- but rather confusing as to decide WHERE-

I’ll give all the possible passages according to each theory-

PRE-TRIB
Revelation 4

  1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
  2. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
    (This assumes that John is a representative of the Church as a whole)

MID-TRIB
Revelation 7
9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12. Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

MID/LATE-TRIB
Revelation 11
11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them (the Two Witnesses killed by the Beast), and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

MID-TRIB
Revelation 12
5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(Assuming the ManChild is the Raptured Church & the Woman is
either Israel or the Institutional Church who was left behind but now is activated into believing)

LATE-TRIB/PRE-WRATH
Revelation 14
14. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 15

  1. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
  2. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

POST-TRIB
Revelation 19

  1. And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
  2. For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
  3. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
  4. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
  5. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
  6. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
  7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
  8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
  9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
  10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
  11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
  12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
  13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
  14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 20
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This has led to another fringe theory- Serial Raptures, that various groups of Christians are raptured at each stage of the Tribulation’s escalating.

And then there is the ManChild Overcomer theory- that there will be a group of sold-out-to-Jesus UberChristians who will live on Earth through the Tribulation doing miracles & standing against the Beast & living in a state of Rapture so that when God does allow them to be slain by the Beast’s minions, they will publically resurrect & ascend into Heaven. This is the fringe of the fringe in the Charismatic movement.

I’ve read WAY too much of this stuff!

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I was about to comment Diogenes that I am not interpreting Daniel and Revelations from an objective, historical point of view. I am rather looking at them with, as you call it “supernatural” God inspired prophesy. So when I reference “biblical scholars” this is referring to theologians who believe in the living God, the bible is the Word of God, and in futre events to come as told in Daniel and Revelations.

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That is fine, as long as you realize that the majority of scripture scholars do believe in the living God, do believe that the Bible is the Word of God, but also believe that Daniel and Revelation (and Ezekiel) were written to give consolation to the people among whom their authors lived without predicting future events and continue, today, to give consolation to the Church, while still not predicting future events,

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The Antichrist will put sugar on his porridge?!?!? :eek:

:wink:

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Who/What is Antiochus?

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Antiochus IV Epiphanes (epiphanes means (very loosely) “god made manifest”) was the Hellenistic (Macedonian/Greek) ruler of Syria in the middle of the 2d century B.C.E. He fought several wars with the Hellenistic rulers of Egypt for control of the Eastern Mediterranean. He also promoted the Hellenization (adoption of Greek mores) of all the countries under his rule. Judea was part of the land in his sphere of influence and he intervened in Jewish politics, favoring the Hellenists over the traditional Jewish party. On one of his sojourns in Egypt, the traditionalists (Hasidim) overthrew his Hellenizers. He expressed his displeasure by sacking Jerusalem, desecrating the Temple, and completely prohibiting the practice of Judaism. In response, the Maccabee family rose up to lead the Jews in revolt, fighting a more or less successful guerrilla war beginning in 166 B.C.E. Antiochus died in 164 while suppressing a different rebellion among the Parthians. Lysias, the viceroy of Antiochus battled the Jews until the city Antioch was threatened by one more revolt, at which time he offered a truce to the Jews and promised that they could resume their worship in peace. From that point, there was civil war between the Hasidim and the Hellenizers with further interventions by Greek Syria and, later, Rome, but the practice of Judaism was not threatened for a while.

It is the opinion of many scholars that the book of Daniel was written at this time to encourage the Jewish rebellion by picturing the defeat of the Greeks in prophecy. Others hold that Daniel was actually written much earlier and that the prophecies against the various empires were predicitive of the future from Daniel’s supposed view from 350 years earlier. (That, of course, is the source of the disputes, mentioned above.)

The war against Antiochus also prompted the writings of the various books of the Maccabeees, the first two of which are accepted as Scripture by Catholics and rejected by Jews and Protestants, while the Orthodox accept all four books as Scripture.
An incident that is supposed to have occurred during the purification and re-dedication of the Temple has provided the background for the feast of Channukah: there was only enough purified oil to keep the Sanctuary lamp lit for a single day, while the purification of more oil required eight days, but the lamp continued to burn for the entire eight days until new oil could be consecrated. Channukah celebrates that miraculous continuous burning of the lamp.

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Antiochus was a king of Syria and Mesoptamia during the Seleucid era. The Seleucids were a Greek dynasty descended from one of Alexander the Great’s generals. There were several different kings named Antiochus, but one in particular made concerted efforts to Hellenize Jerusalem and persecute Jews. One of the things he did was to erect a statue of Zeus in the temple. This is the “abomination” mentioned in Daniel. Antochus’ actions in Jerusalem led to the Maccabean revolt and the eventual ousting of Antiochus in 164 BCE. The rededication of the Temple three years after its desecration by Antiochus was the historical event now celebrated as Hanukkah.

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Oops, I should have previewed. tom~ beat me to it.