The one where he got smitten by boils was pretty funny, though.
Which opens up an even bigger philosophical can of worms, to wit: if everything in the universe has to unfold according to some predetermined plan, does your god have free will? It would seem that not only would it not, but that the god itself would be merely a supernatural actor in the “implicate and explicate order” of the world as we experience it rather than a prayer answering diety with volition and objective control over natural forces.
Stranger
The God I don’t believe in transcends time, space, and dimension.
Well, not if the predetermined plan is God’s predetermined plan. :smack:
I don’t conceptualize God as experiencing the passage of time. The passage of time is the process of the universe experiencing God.
A while back, I was browsing the science magazines in a bookstore (probably Discover, possibly Scientific American), and I came across an article about quantum mechanics.
The article claimed that some physicist had come up with a mechanism by which future event B could cause past event A. But, when he crunched the numbers, he found that the margins of error were such that you would never be able to prove that B was the only possible cause of A.
So, not only does quantum mechanics allow a Deity to work miracles, it also allows Him to cover His tracks, and Work In Mysterious Ways.
When I read about quantum mechanics, I often find myself thinking, “God exists, and He hates the faithful”.
If the plan truly is “predetermined”, where is the volition on the part of the god in response to ? Why should you or anyone bother praying to or recognizing a god of any kind, or indeed, even recognize it as some kind of personality?
Stranger
I wouldn’t know I have never asked him.
I don’t understand the question. Or you didn’t understand my prior response. Admittedly, I wasn’t being 100% serious in positing it, but I said, essentially, “Not if God is the predeterminer”. ETA: Do note that I said above that God does not experience the passage of time. Hence God isn’t mulling over some notion on Tuesday and reaching a decision by Thursday. We do tend to think of volition as something incompatible with a predetermined system, but that’s because we usually think of a volitional conscious intentionality as operating across the passage of time.
One prays to God to gain understanding, just as one pursues understanding in the physics lab. I cannot speak to “recognize it as some kind of personality” insofar as I do not conceptualize God as some kind of personality.
Dude’s just running a simulation on his sweet new PC. If he wants to revert to a previous checkpoint, he can. Or just run it from the beginning again with a new seed value. Sucks if you’re in a timeline he got bored with, though.
Prayer can teach you to recognise that what comes next is often not down to your actions at all. You don’t have to assume that there is a conscious mind capable of changing the future (or, to be on topic, the past) to value prayer. Making peace with the fact that you can’t control everything is something that most people have to go through, religious or not.
Recognising god as some kind of personality I think makes it a bit easier to treat it like a conversation. If you were having an actual conversation with an actual god it would probably be a bit awkward, so to assume human like features makes it easier to get to the point. Whether you take this step or not doesn’t matter too much I think.
Yes I believe so , and likewise (and due to) we will also have that ability one day, for God and us are ultimately one since we are God’s children. Though God would not have any reason to do so as ‘God’, but since we will do it and with oneness with God, God will do it.
In this belief children are part of the parent, one in spirit (Holy Spirit), hence what is commonly called the trinity.
Don’t know, don’t care, and have never given the question a second’s thought.
But if it will make Czarcasm happy, I’ll ask God for him should I make it to Heaven.
^^^^ This. Well put, by the way. In order to be a praying person, it is often useful (if not necessary) to anthropomorphize God somewhat. To conceptualize God as if God were indeed a person-like entity who listened to you on Tuesday and mulled over what you asked about until Thursday and then gave you a thoughtfully considered reply. Why is it useful to do this? Because prayer is communication. We know how to communicate with other entities similar to ourselves. Prayer is experienced as something strongly akin to communication.
How the fuck to you communicate with That Which Is, good old mister I AM THAT I AM, my bestie and much-fun companion The Entirety of That Which Acts Volitionally? A lot the same, actually. It’s about you opening up and being emotionally honest and just laying it all out there. And doing that is easier if you can relate to God, feel like God unto whom you’re unburdening your concerns is a good warm everyday cozy kind of entity. It’s harder if you’re busy thinking of God as that which plays with time a a toy and doesn’t experience the passage of time. Or thinking of God as an abstraction, not an entity with a personality and inclinations and tastes and preferences at all, but instead a set of primordial principles like the laws of physics, common-sense type comprehensions about aspects of what it means to be alive, and in a state of interaction with others of trhe same species.
I have a friend with a cell phone. It has voice recognition. To it, she says “Ciri… where is the best place to throw a party” She does not believe there is a genuine entity, Ciri, who hears her and who cares about her concerns. But she interacts with Ciri as if that were how things were because it’s a useful oversimplifaction of her relationship to the Ciri voice recognition and voice activated command system on her phone.
Anyone here played Minecraft or The Sims? You absolutely can create a situation that appears to be time travel from the perspective of the simple creatures in your world. You can pause the simulation and edit it’s history, and if your entities have memory, you could edit it so that from their perspective, it was “always that way”.
Of course, in your personal timeline, you cannot time travel. If you could, your perspective would be soup and incoherent.
If there were a God - and there is no credible evidence we humans have collected to think there is one - in whatever realm he existed in, time traveling would be just as bad for him as it is for us. And probably impossible. Now, from our perspective, god is still omnipotent - he can presumably erase or edit the entire universe in any way he desires, including destroying the whole thing.
The only reason this is even a topic of discussion is that religious people do not wish to posit even the most vague of limitations on their invisible friend who never answers.
I can’t tell if this is incredibly deep or just impossible to understand - not that the two a mutually exclusive…
Great question, Czarcasm! I tend toward the belief that God exists outside of all dimensions, including time, and therefore it is a question without context. Fun to think about, though.
If the context is from our limited linear perspective, not the perspective of your god of choice does that help? Could(not would or should) she/he rewrite history so that, say, different Powerball numbers were picked last week and someone different won the jackpot? For what reason? I don’t care and that’s another subject involving knowing the minds of gods, I suppose.
Isn’t your first paragraph a good analogy for the possibility of what you say is probably impossible in your third paragraph? If god created a universe like programming a videogame, he stands outside time as we experience it, so he should be able to alter the flow of our time without any ill effects on himself.
I already answered that
Can, Yes
Will, No
My God is me so, no.
This is scary. Are you me? I’ve noticed your posts, and always tend to agree with you, but on this specific topic, you’ve laid out what I’ve always mulled over to myself about the nature of God and time, free will and predestination.
Do I have free will? Ostensibly, yes. Does God know what I’ll choose? Yes. How to square the two? I’ve already made my choice, and God knows what choice I’ll make. I don’t know yet, though, because I don’t exist outside of time.
Can God change the past? Question does not compute. “Change” implies passage of time, or at least of precedence, and God exists outside of time. God did not do things the “first time” and then change his mind, because there was no first time. In fact, the concept of God “doing” something already implies causality and precedence, and for something that exists outside of time, it’s nonsense. You may as well ask “but really, what is a cube in two dimensions”.