Can war really have rules?

This is a spin-off of a hijack of this thread over in GQ.

Alessan first said:

and sailor replied with

My question is this: How can war have rules? War is not the product of a civilized nation…it’s the result of a breakdown in the system. Rules for war are a convenient way for us civilians sitting at home sending our dollars to the war effort, cheering for the deaths of Japanese/Iraqi/German/Vietnamese/Korean/What-have-you soldiers as we watch tv and pat ourselves on the backs and reveling in how civilized we are.

When you are fighting a war on someone else’s soil, every man, woman, and child is a potential threat. EVERY soldier is a threat, regardless of whether he is surrendering, escaping, or having lunch.

My uncle told me stories of civilians coming out of houses in towns they had just liberated and firing on the American soldiers. If the U.S. were ever invaded I have no doubt there would be civilians doing any little thing possible to thwart the occupying forces.

Our soldiers go through training to learn how to resist and escape when captured, as well as doing anything possible to sabotage the enemy before leaving.

What’s my point? Anybody whose territory you are trying to take, any soldier as long as there is breath in his body, is a threat to you. Kill them. People need to see what war really is, not the dressed-up, sterilized version we get from politicians (“don’t worry, it’s not really a bad war, it’s high tech. Surgical strikes. Our boys don’t even come near the damage. They aren’t killing people, they’re pressing buttons to launch artificially intelligent ordnance. Low collateral damage. We didn’t know that was the Chinese embassy, really!”). War really is hell. General Sherman had the right idea. The civilians make the policy. Civilians declare wars. All soldiers do is fight battles for politicians. Since civilians are the ones who support, finance, and ultimately start and end wars, they should be treated to a taste of it. And rules or no rules, if I were fighting a battle, I would not leave a single enemy soldier alive, given the choice.

Comments?

The first quote-within-a-quote in the OP said:

Actually, some of the Rules of Engagement I saw during Operation Desert Storm were pretty brutal. The Apache AH-64 Attack Helicopter pilots would shoot a missile at a radar installation, and then machine-gun down any people they saw running out the the building trying to get away. The same thing went for people seen scrambling out of a tank that got hit – they were gunned down to keep them from telling their comrades about the positions of our AH-64 actions.

Well, personally I think that “rules” in war are a stupid idea, because the people NOT following the rules are at an advantage. At heart, I am a pacifist, and think that all war is a bad idea. But if you are doing it, do it right.

However, I have never found honor in violence. I have generally never gotten into a physical fight of any kind, mainly because I don’t see the reason for a fist fight. If I am at the point to cause physical harm to another person, for self defense say, I intend to cause permanent, debilitating damage. I intend to do two things in a fight: repeatedly attack the testicles, and if possible blind the person by removing their eyes from their head. If I am prepared to become violent, I see no reason to punch someone repeatedly when I can sterilize him, cause intense pain, and blind him with much less effort on my part. Anything short of complete and utter destruction is pointless. If violence is to be used, it should have enough justifcation to be complete violence. Which is why I never get into fights: I would easily end up in jail.

I hold the same opinion of war: I see no reason to justify a “limited war”: If you are going to do battle, there is no reason to NOT do maximum damage. I also see no real reason for war, however, so perhaps the whole thing is moot.

The rules of war (e.g. the Geneva Convention) were created to minimize disease, excessive casualties, civilian deaths, etc… They are enforced by pressure from nations not involved in whatever war is being fought: if Syria and Jordan get into a war, the U.S. will probably stay out of the way, but if Syria starts routinely torturing its Prisoners of War or using poison gas or, in the worst case, going nuclear, you can bet your sweet bippy the U.S. will probably intervene on the side of the Jordanians.

Everybody follows the rules of war until somebody starts losing…

The rules of war are agreed to and followed not to minimize the horror of it all but to prevent the breakdown of discipline. Military generals and civilian leaders agree to these rules to insure an “orderly” war (an oxymoron if there ever was one). Once the rules are abandoned then all hell breaks loose. For example, in Vietnam there was a breakdown of the rules of war and atrocities occured like the massacre at Mai Lai. The army didn’t really care about the civilians who were slaughtered as evidenced by their half-hearted efforts to courtmartial and imprison the commanding officers responsible. What the army does care about is RULES. When they put a gun in your hand and send you off to the front they expect you to follow the rules (i.e. legal orders) because the instant rules are abandoned officers get fragged. Vietnam is the perfect example of the breakdown in discipline leading to the murder of officers by their own men. Basically the rules of war specify when, where, and at whom a soldier may discharge his weapon. If a soldier starts to decide for himself who to shoot then he ceases to be a fighing tool for the army and becomes an out of control looter, rapist, and murderer.

An example of the rules of war would be the rule against attacking enemy soldiers who are escorting prisoners of war. That is, if a bunch of Nazi soldiers were seen escorting a group of American POW’s then no allied forces could touch them. If you ignore this rule and start shooting at the prisoner’s escort then they have every right ot slaughter their prisoners. Rules like this insure that: A) both sides take prisoners since you are shielded from attack while escorting POW’s. B) these prisoners can be exchanged for your own guys being held by the other side. C) Most importantly, when you are facing overwhelming odds surrender will remain an option and if ordered to surrender a soldier can do so with the hope of being treated mercifully and within the rules of war. Once it becomes policy “to take no prisoners” then desertions, mutinies, and fraggings become rampant as soldiers try to escape the certain death of having to always win every battle (or at least retreat successfully).
To summarize my point, it isn’t attrocities that generals are afraid of, it’s fragging and desertion and mutiny.

You mean like we supported Iran when Iraq started using poison gas–yes, I know, different politics… Sorry, couldn’t help that one…

Generally you can get away with breaking some of the rules because war is the ultimate chaotic environment. You can even get away with breaking nearly all of the rules if you win, it’s just that history might end up villifying you. Take a look at the Eastern Front in WW2–the Russians were as brutal as the Germans (if not more so), but it was the losers who stood trial for war crimes.

by establishing rules for war, you’re in fact legitimizing war as a viable problem solving…isn’t war supposed to be a last resort? AN all out effort to eliminate your enemy?

Rules in a conflict are governed by fear, “rules” ignored by those without fear…if a superior power wanted to gas a country, and they felt that they can control any county which objects, handle any retalliation, they are going to go ahead and do it and prepare to face the reprocussions.

I agree. That’s exactly my point. War should be brutal and horrible. The more you sterilize everybody’s perception of it and make it seem like it’s neat and clean, the less you have people working to prevent it. “It’s no big deal…we’ll send some air strikes just to keep them quiet…” Imagine if war still looked like the battle scenes in Braveheart. Bodies lying in piles, men missing limbs, blood-soaked fields, etc. A major problem with our society is that we have lost sight of the horrors of war, and it’s all computerized so that even the participants don’t have to deal with the realities of it (exceptions: Snipers, Special Ops teams, etc…anybody who looks a man in the face before they kill him or does it with their own hands). Even the infantry is becoming more and more detached from the battle. The modern soldier has tools on his person that enable him to view the situation through a camera mounted on his rifle, with IR capability. He doesn’t even have to use his own eyes. It’s becoming more like a video game.

Sorry, I think I’m hijacking my own thread. War, by definition, is a breakdown of the rules and civilized ways of dealing with other nations. jayron32 has the right idea. Don’t fight frivolously. If it does become necessary to go into battle, then go in with all guns blazing and do enough damage to your enemy that he will think twice (or even three times) before provoking you again. Hurt him, frighten him, destroy him.

And I think some posters are confusing rules with orders. It goes without saying that soldiers need to be disciplined and follow orders from their officers. That’s not my point. I’m talking about the so-called rules that prevent you from shooting a downed pilot or a civilian who proves to be hostile. Or place arbitrary limits on what types of ammunition (uranium, nuclear, gas, etc) you can use, or whether you can mine an area. In other words, rules that pretend to civilize an uncivilized act (war).

ponch:

Last resort, yes; eliminate your enemy, maybe. First, I have to assume you mean eliminate your opponent’s military capacity; AFAIK genocidal wars are relatively rare. Secondly, IIRC, the concept of the “pitched battle”, where you make a concerted effort to really kill your opponents, is only as recent as the ancient Greeks, so elimination was not always the case.

But even in recent times, the goal of warfare is not necessarily elimination. I’ve recently discussed the Somalia debacle of '93 on another thread, and while not technically a war, it shows there are sometimes milltary goals you’d like to achieve without attempting to massacre all who oppose you. I’m sure I could come up with wars that fit the bill, but let’s not get into nit-picking examples. Whether it is realistic to presume that such goals are acheivable or not is a debate I don’t really want to get into…

Joe

I agree and disagree. Yes, if we are going to kill people then we should be forced to see it. Robert E. Lee said something to the effect that, “It’s good that war is so terrible, lest we become too fond of it.” (At least I think it was Lee…) But if we can minimize innocent casualties without sacrificing our military effectiveness, we should take every effort to do so. Let’s not fall into the trap of generalization that says just because we go to war any action becomes justifiable. If that’s the case, why not just use a nuke?

I think that if we had the ability to make a non-lethal weapon that could immobilize the Iraqi army and pluck out Saddam without a casuality, I’d probably be for it, though that would open up a whole other can of worms…

A couple of interesting links:

  1. http://mprofaca.cro.net/lawsorce.html
  2. http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrime.htm

I’m still formulating my thoughts on the matter, so I won’t actually post an opinion at this time…

This link has a superb summary of the philosophical positions behind jus ad bellum – justice in declaring war – and jus in bello, or just conduct during wartime (the OP is related more to the latter).

If you are going to involve morality in the way you fight a war (I’m sticking with the issue of jus in bello here) there are three tricky principles commonly seen as necessary for setting any ‘moral’ rules.

  1. Who is a legimate target?
  1. Proportionality – what level of force is appropriate?
  1. Just who is responsible for implementing and answering to this morality?

Another very good link is here. As well as summarising the above points, it adds a layer looking at why just warfare is an issue for the American military. The authors suggest that…

Finally a thread that lets me dig out my old Thomas Nagel and Michael Walzer texts!

#1. if you win, nobody that matters can object to your having broken the rules.

#2. if you loose and you broke the rules, somebody is in deep doodoo.

#3. when somebody is shooting at you, who gives a sh!t?

                                          Dal Timgar

i have to agree with Joe Cool in his OP. as an infantryman, i was trained and taught our rules of engagement. When push came to shove, even in training missions, rules like those meant to support things like the Geneva Convention go out the door. During JRTC, even the OC’s watching us and scoring the units wouldn’t object to us “breaking rules” because they understood the importance of the situation we were in at the time. If you’re in a conflict, you are to at all costs end that conflict with the end in your favor. That’s just plain life. If it’s too harsh or cruel for someone who hasn’t been there, or the politicians, or any power hungry jerk that feels the need to make a stand for something because it helps their image thane i suggest dropping them in on the action with a sidearm or weapon and lets see their reactions to the conflict. Rules i believe were created to help keep the soldiers in line, but were never meant to be a strict guiding force. Above all, the men and women and sometimes even children out there fighting want only to survive, see their families survive, and their homes survive. They care nothing about the brute savages that offend them and their homeland. It might not be “fair” to shoot paratroopers or men jumping ship, but put yourself on both sides, and see where you would rather be. I’d like to hear someone say honestly “oh, well, shucks, that fella is jumping out of a tank we just shelled, i should let him go even though he’s carrying an AK-47 and an RPG and all i’ve got left is my M-16, but i trust him, he won’t shoot me 'cause i’m honoring the rules of engagement under the Geneva Convention, he’s just gonna drop his weapon and come with me as my prisoner”
right…
wer’e definitely trained to escape by all means. part of our code. we have to escape, those are our orders. by any means necessary.

So far as I know it is perfectly ok to shoot paratroopers. They are after all engaged in some sort of offensive or defensive action at the time. It really isn’t any different then shooting at small unarmed craft before they land on the beach.

Shooting people fleeing armor is acceptable as well. Some crews are armed with sub-machine guns and are still considered combatants when they exit the vehicle.

So far as I know it is ok to shoot unarmed soldiers if they have not surrendered.

Marc

fellas, fellas…clap, clap, clap…pay attention now! we.re going to stand 100 yards away, we’ll take turns shooting at each other, when a line falls, the folks behind them take their place…'K?

The perspective changes from nation to nation. The logic of eliminating the entire war machine, including the civilians supporting the troops, manufacturing the weapons, providing the food, is one which has been historically implemented. Fortunatelly(?) technology has reduced the ammounts of collateral damage (another disgusting term)one can affict. If you are the US, you stand behind the mantra of eliminating the enemies military capabilities. Why? Because of policy, as it applies to us, and how we will react if an oppressive nation crosses the policies established by the U.N. What’s to stop a maniacal psycopath from gassing a nation, his own mortality…fear reprocussion.

Are there rules? Yes. Does that sicken me? yes. The whole concept that it’s fine to kill, but don’t be too dirty about it, you can shoot me, but don’t gas me, is disgraceful, but unfortunatelly part of reality. That’s why every country maintains a peace keeping force of their own.

From the OP:

Part of the problem is that the civilians making the policy and declaring the wars are usually not the same civilians that end up at the wrong end of an enemy soldier’s AK-47. Politicians are usually fairly well insulated from the battles that are being fought “for them.”

I’m curious: does this “anti-rules” position imply support for that ancient military pastime of raping and looting as well? After all, that often increases the morale of the conquering troops and further demoralizes the conquered civilians, which seems to be what we’re advocating.

<<Re: Raping and looting: After all, that often increases the morale of the conquering troops and further demoralizes the conquered civilians, which seems to be what we’re advocating.>>

I think that history shows that units that descend into debauchery such as that don’t respond well to their officers, lose discipline, and quickly become ineffective in battle. Cases in point: Several Einsatzgruppen units on the eastern front, and at least one SS unit in WWII, in the Warsaw uprising, had to be taken to the rear because the troops were so busy raping and looting they forgot about their mission.

A Confederate Brigade under Jubal Early, I think, looted a Town in Pennsylvania later in the war, and wasn’t worth much after that.

The Serbian Army.

Just to clarify some things…and I got my schooling in the Law of Land Warfare courtesy of the U.S. Army School of Infantry:

Descending paratroopers are fair game, as are evacuating armored vehicle crewmen. Airmen bailing out of disabled aircraft are not fair game, and must be allowed to land safely unless they attempt to resist capture.

Note that these are within the interests of the countries and soldiers encountering them as well: A live pilot and officer will have intelligence value, bargaining chip value, and propaganda value. A dead one will not.

Another principles of the law of land warfare: Generally speaking, a unit or soldier has the right to defend himself. Political considerations aside, for the moment, he is not expected to let the fear of collateral damage prohibit him from accomplishing his mission and the mission of his unit. But any experienced soldier knows that gratuitous cruelty has a political cost, and can in the long term compromise the mission of the unit. The Serbs learned this lesson well in Kosovo, when their wanton cruelty provoked NATO to intervene against them.

Refraining from this wanton cruelty, in the long run, would have been in their best interests. Certainly, it would have resulted in a better deal than they got…a lot of their own guys dead or wounded, an economy and infrastructure in ruins, and foreign troops on their own soil.

Russian cruelty toward German prisoners in WWII also ultimately worked to their disadvantage, as hopelessly outnumbered German formations fought to their deaths, taking tens of thousands of Russians with them, rather than surrender. Still other German formations…entire divisions, when all was lost, killed a bunch of Russians fighting their way west in a desparate effort to surrender to American and British units, rather than to the Russians. Meanwhile, by late 1944 and early 1945, encircled Germans were surrenduring by the tens of thousands to American support columns, in the knowledge that the Americans, generally speaking, would honor the Geneva convention.

As a result, first of all, tens of thousands of American lives were saved. Second, Americans occupying Germany and Japan and Italy did not have near the pesky partisan problems that the Japanese did in the Phillipines, and that the Germans did in Russia and Poland and Yugoslavia during the war, as a result of their monstrous cruelty.

German and Japanese war aims would have been better served by a more reasonable, restrained policy that discouraged murder, torture, looting and rape. Instead, in many cases (though not all), their commands at least tacitly tolerated this behavior.

A notable exception: Erwin Rommel would not tolerate violations of the Law of Land warfare under his command. Not coincidentally, as a professional soldier par excellence, he was consistently among the most effective commanders in the Wehrmacht.

Again, when he had enough in hand to mount offensive operations (before El Alamein), when British formations became encircled, they would surrender rather than fight practically to the last breath, as the Germans did at Stalingrad. That’s one reason why the Stalingrad siege lasted months and cost millions dead, while the siege of Tobruk took only a few short weeks before the British capitulated to the Afrika Korps.

We have the Law of Land Warfare, and as an officer I enforce it, because it is ultimately in the best interests of my soldiers and my command and my country for me to do so. It saves lives on both sides.

We also enforce it because we are an army of a Democratic Republic and that is something I never want my soldiers to forget.

And personally, I enforce it also because it is the law, and because it’s the right thing to do. It really isn’t rocket science.

I’m afraid not, though it may seem this way. The goal of fighting a particular battle or campaign could be to destroy or reduce enemy military capability. But our goal in war is to reach a satisfactory conclusion as soon as possible in order to minimize casualities and suffering. That we fail to do so sometimes should come as no surprise, as nobody can predict the future.

IIRC, Gatling thought his machine gun would make war so terrible that no one would go to war again. Clearly he was wrong–people simply got used to the idea that massacre is what war is. If you think by removing the rules people will be less likely to go to war, I don’t think you understand how dumb people are. I think war is inevitable as long as the human race remains ignorant of it’s evil. Since a large percentage of Earth’s population remains willingly ignorant, wishing to go to war at the first provocation, I doubt we’ll be a peaceful planet for quite some time.

So if war is inevitable, we have a duty to minimize it’s evil, and panzerman makes a good case on why things are the way they are.

I don’t want to give the impression that I don’t see the humanitarian side of the discussion–I do. It’s a really difficult question, obviously. You guys have made some really strong points that I can’t dispute, but there is still conflict in my mind.

I agree that once you have actually taken prisoners, torture is completely wrong. Once you have taken men into your custody, you are responsible for their well-being And torture is not only cruel and needless, but counterproductive. My problem is in the actual taking of prisoners. Should it be done? Aside from potential intelligence (questionable…what infantryman is privy to more information than what he was attacking at the moment he was captured?), why? When?

A soldier throws down his rifle and surrenders. Acting as a human being rather than a soldier, should you allow him to be kept safe and healthy as a prisoner? Probably. but this raises the probability that he will make more trouble for you later, either by sabotage or escape attempts, or else by returning to battle following his release.

You’ve just finished eliminating an enemy force in a small town in country X. While the residents have not used force against you, they are vocally hostile and make it well-known that they hate you and will resist you. Do you forcibly pacify them? Or do you say “people will be people” and move on, leaving a possibly armed and obviously hostile civilian militia at your rear?

panzerman said:

So you are supposed to allow an active combatant and aggressor (from your POV. speaking of battlefield conditions, not political causes & effects) safe passage to the ground, at which time you are required to take him prisoner or let him go about his business of causing you as much damage as he is humanly capable while he escapes to friendly territory? Intelligence value aside, even a pilot is still a soldier. He is trained in use of arms, as well as escape & evasion. Even though he doesn’t have his 14 million dollar aircraft around him, he is still a threat to you. If you don’t specifically need a prisoner for whatever reason, why even bother? Having a prisoner reduces your available manpower (gotta watch him, right?), resources (gotta feed and clothe him, too), and overall effectiveness. Unless he was captured while breaking into a POW camp.