Can we have a polite discussion about poverty, government, and free markets?

This thread is intended as a response to comments like this one, in which a poster simply knows that some conservatives hate and fear poor people and are determined to oppress them. Of course that comment is far from unique. It’s quite predictable on this board and elsewhere that when anyone posts a defense of free markets and capitalism, certain posters will pile on and insist that it’s merely a defense of the rich–see the first few responses in this thread, for instance. One of the names that comes up most frequently in articles attacking conservative economic freedom is Milton Friedman, who supposedly provided the intellectual basis for the rich to become entirely selfish and greedy while ignoring any concerns of the poor.

In reality, anyone who’s read Milton Friedman’s books knows that he was passionately concerned about the poor, and most of his time was dedicated to activism for the poor. There is a common belief–and it was much more common a few decades ago–that more government redistribution and regulation of economic activity will help the poor, while unfettered free markets would hurt them. Friedman believed the exact opposite; he thought that government redistribution and regulation hurt the poor as well as the middle class, and benefited primarily the upper tiers of society.

Friedman wrote Free to Choose in 1979, when a few hard-core folks still insisted that communism was the path to help to poor escape the horrors of capitalism. Friedman pointed out the obvious: compare the plight of the poor in the Soviet Union vs. western Europe, or in China vs. Hong Kong, or in North Korea vs. South Korea, or in any communist country vs. any capitalist country. It was plain which system was better for the poor and for everyone else. OF course some will reply by acknowledging that command economies have failed but that a free market economy governed by a high level of regulation is the key to helping the poor. In response, Friedman offered the test case of India, which had an enormous government bureaucracy, heavy regulation of every imaginable industry and business, and a sky-high corporate tax rate. Needless to say, India was synonymous with grinding, third-world poverty. By contrast Japan, which had been burned to the ground in WWII, gave its citizens more economic freedom than almost any other country and became quite wealthy, with no one living in extreme poverty.

The reason why so many Indians lived in grinding poverty then was not hard to find, nor is the reason why, despite some economic progress, most of them still do. (Over half live on less than $2 per day.) As explained in this article by Shikha Dalmia, doing anything in India means overcoming an army of bureaucrats. Starting a business, creating a new product, or even leaving and re-entering the country can mean getting permits from dozens of agencies and offices and boards. In practice this means that starting a business requires paying dozens of bribes, which poor people can’t afford to do. Hence poor people can’t start businesses and they remain poor. On the other hand, the system is quite good for the bureaucrats, who are much richer than the average Indian. It’s also good for any wealthy corporation that wants to exploit the poor for cheap labor. India’s government is a giant machine that transfers wealth upwards to those who are already wealthy while ensuring that the poor remain poor.

And today, more than three decades after Friedman wrote that book, how are the heavily regulated countries doing against the free ones? The Heritage Foundation’s Index of Economic Freedom ranks nations by the freedom from regulation, corruption, and government spending that their people enjoy. This page provides data on poverty levels worldwide. Even a cursory analysis shows that the nations ranked highest for economic freedom all have very low poverty rates, while those with the lowest economic freedom rankings tend to have high poverty rates. (For some there’s no data available.) Comparisons within regions point the same way. Chile and Uruguay have the most economic freedom of any countries in South America, and the smallest percentage of the population living beneath $1 or $2 per day. I doubt it’s a coincidence that the countries in Europe with the best economies, such as Germany, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden, have high rankings on economic freedom, while Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Italy are further down the chart.

Everywhere we look these days we see an article about rising economic inequality in the United States, and often the author simply assumes that deregulation and shrinking government must be at fault. In fact, government regulation has increased quite a bit over the past few decades (cite, cite). Given the steady, upward march of federal and state spending over the past few decades, it hardly seems reasonable to blame the small size of government either. There is simply is not any evidence to back up the assumption that more regulation and bigger government will benefit the poor, either at home or abroad. The evidence points the other way.

Excellent post. Of course, Friedman is correct. The problem is that neither party in the US can or will make the necessary moves to increase economic freedom. Crony Capitalism reigns these days within both parties.

One thing is for sure. Conservative leaders will bring us much closer to economic freedom than liberal leaders.

Being passionate about the poor in a free market has little to no bearing. If poverty was just a matter of economic policy we’d solved it decades ago.

Why? Do you think current economic policy is so enlightened and perfect that any possible problem it could have addressed has already been fixed? Is there absolutely no way to improve economic policy to help solve any further problems?

There seems to be a consensus among free-market types that there is little or no upside to ameliorating poverty. Those who have the (whatever) to escape their circumstances will, and to hell with the rest.

This is where I disagree with you. Take a look at any place in the world with a higher life expectancy, lower poverty rate, lower violent crime rate, and better standard of living than the United States, and tell me what all of them have in common.

That particular position is absolutely indefensible.

I don’t think this is clear at all. Did the Bush administration increase or decrease Economic freedom? When you look at the market distortions created by his subsidies and also at things like the bankruptcy reform act of 2005, it is not clear conservatives do any better here.

The key to the free-market argument is defining “economic freedom” strictly in pure free-market terms. Any system with true “economic freedom,” then, would put no obstacles in the path of robber-barons, monopolizers, or concentrators of wealth.

Yes. Conservative oppose economic freedom for the general population; they want the ordinary worker to be bereft of rights and terrorized into accepting low pay and bad treatment. “Labor discipline” they call it.

I think consensus makes a good point, isolating economics as the only factor in how humans live and behave is wrong. It is critical component but does not explain how different societies with seemingly similar economic models end up with very different outcomes.

I think that the concern people have at the moment is widening gap between rich and poor in rich countries both in monetary and power terms. The whole 1% thing is being played out as a return to old aristocratic ways and people are getting concerned. There is also a strong backlash against what people see as gambling at the highest levels, is making money on some obscure financial bet a good use of our talent and resources?

Another concern is that as you centralize more resources into less people’s hands then you can stifle creativity by not allowing things to fail. Banks are good example, if they don’t fail then we don’t get new models that may be more efficient.

I am a free market person who is biased towards strong government intervention in things like health care, education, roads etc, policing etc but happy for markets to perform fairly freely. To say that unfettered capitalism or socialism is good is wrong, there is a balance and countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand are shining examples IMO.

At the end of the day are we a person, a tribe, a village, a country or a global community?

I daresay there’s a conservative meme that government employees, or bureaucrats if you will, are invariably lazy and inefficient. No doubt some are, but there are plenty of others who are conscientious, energetic, and will go out of their way to help a citizen. I know, I’ve met some of them. Thing is, if one is talking to a conservative who knows for sure that government services will never be as efficient as corporate services, good luck having a productive discussion on economics.

Actually, the correlation you claim to see on cursory analysis isn’t obvious at all. Of the top 5 countries in the Heritage Index, 4 aren’t listed. Canada, which is number 6, is on par with the Bahamas and Georgia. Chile is matched with Azerbaijan.

Obviously there is some correlation between economic freedom and prosperity. But in terms of modern US policy, more economic freedom means becoming more like Hong Kong. If your thesis is that countries with Hong Kong’s level of laissez faire markets have less poverty, you’ve not submitted any evidence for it.

Interesting to note that Singapore is a tightly regulated economy with the government owning many large providers, Australia & NZ have free healthcare and have strong welfare systems, Switzerland has high personal taxes and they perform pretty well.

When you look at why Australia has scored well you need to understand that we have a very clear and robust legal system, strong anti corruption, consumer and anti competitive laws and yes less regulated markets then a lot of places. So it is a combination of aspects that allows us to be rated among the highest in the world in a lot of ways.

The profit motive must be the only motive. If it is not, the free-market absolutists would have a foundational crack in their assumptions about human nature. And you can be sure that they won’t allow that.

With all due respect, Der, can you please dry up and blow away? Your reputation cancels out any good you might otherwise do in this particular discussion.

I believe the battle against poverty starts very early in a childs life. School is about the only place where government interacts with opur children. Protecting the children and giving them a safe larning envirement is the first step. Teachers acan also help to build a childs sense of self worth and confidence. I believe educating our teachers in positive reinforcement could be an important first step in the war on poverty.

Far better that teachers be drill instructors inculcating instinctual obedience to the needs of capital. Young people with self-worth and confidence are no good to anyone but themselves. You’d be breeding a generation of screamin’ baby bolsheviks.

I don’t think that conservatives, at least monolithically, have a lack of concern about the poor. I just think that they have a philosophy about how the poor will best be helped which happens to be quite convenient in what it implies in terms of how the policies will affect themselves and/or the people who they interact with the most. But I think the market fundamentalists sincerely believe in what they say. People are very good at convincing themselves of the truth and correctness of what they want to believe. (There does often seem to be among some conservatives very little thought given to the poor, although there are exceptions like Jack Kemp who really seem to genuinely give the poor a lot of thought even though their simplistic conclusions are a bit painful to listen to.)

As for the rest of your post, it is basically just the fallacy of the excluded middle. The fact that the extreme of socialism does not work and that markets can be efficient ways to allocate resources and reward people who innovate does not mean that markets are perfect and that the best solution is to make “free markets” a religion.

I think an actual look at the data would show that the best societies for the poor (and arguably for everyone as a whole) are those that achieve a balance between the extremes…and that the current system in the U.S. has become increasingly unbalanced.

First one has to define “poverty”. The federal poverty level used by US government is just some arbitrary income figure. So if you have $1M in the bank, at 2% interest, thus your income is $20K/year, you’re under this poverty line. It also doesn’t take into account where the person lives, although $20K/year in NYC vs. $20K/year in Appalachia somewhere would result in two completely different standards of living.

Same thing with the US Census Bureau’s poverty threshold levels. No accounting for wealth or geography.

Relative poverty levels are something else - if you define the poverty level as bottom 10% of the population, then it becomes meaningless to talk about eliminating it, since there will always be the bottom 10%.

Comparing poverty in different countries, even developed ones, is also an exercise in futility and often has no relation to reality - too many factors other than income levels are in play.

And without a clear definition of “poverty”, how can you discuss it?

I don’t think that Denmark, Finland, and Sweden, or even Germany for that matter, have embraced the sort of market fundamentalism preached by, say, the Republican Party in the U.S. So, I am really not sure what to make of the Heritage Foundation rankings. I am happy to have the “economic freedom” of Sweden and Denmark and at the same time also their social safety net, universal healthcare, …