I am unreasonably pissed off that I just scrolled through this whole god damned thread to find those posts so I could figure out WTF “Rafferism” referred to, only to find jack squat, only to THEN realize from your cute little “GB” reference that you’re probably talking about Giraffe Boards. Would it have killed you to have just answered the question like a normal person the first time? Believe it or not, not all of us are as hip to “GB” culture and “Rafferisms” as you apparently are.
Why are we bringing Bush into this?
At least I* contribute more than condescending and just vaguely racist stories about how dumb and superstitious, yet compassionate and accepting the poor third-worlders that you encountered were and how strong you were to bear up under The White Man’s Burden or how unworldly Americans need your help to know that…kidnapping babies is wrong.
*“you guys”? You think this is a mouse in my pocket?
I don’t think that the majority of adoptive parents are willing to turn a blind eye to stolen babies. Friends of ours spent years trying to adopt through Nepal, the program was shut down due to not being really sure how the transactions where happening, and while they were disappointed that they’d have to start over, they also knew and understood that the important thing was to make sure babies were being released by their birth parents in legal and ethical ways. I’ve known people over the years who have been in similar situations with India, Vietnam and Guatemala.
However, as a parent adopting internationally, you have to trust. You do need to do your homework to make us you choose an ethical agency on this side, and that agency is going to take steps to make sure the other side is ethical. You trust the Hague and State Department. Adopting parents don’t have the resources to do investigations half way around the world themselves, that is why they hire professionals.
There’s also this, in which I felt that only vague snark was appropriate in response to vaguely hand-waving away child-abduction witch hunt murder.
So, did you have anything helpful to say about Islam and Halloween? Or any nuance to add to or contradict my story? Any interesting experiences of your own, or academic knowledge? Anything?
Anything to add on international adoption and less-than-stellar adoption practices? Any reason why I shouldn’t be pissed off that it’s my ass on the line when fake-o “NGO’s” use their position to sell kids? Anything at all to contribute?
Dopers are French? Who knew?
You know, if even sven did come out against puppy-kicking, she’d do so in a way that would make people want to kick puppies. I’d probably wind up at the shelter paying for the privilege.
I do not know anything about GB, but the story Fenris posted reminds me of the way in which the “great white savior” figure (jokingly referred to) often comes across to the people he/she is attempting to save or protect.
I admit that this figure or person taking on the role is often very helpful and valiant, but the “great white” may possibly enjoy being the “savior to the poor unfortunates” way more then they will let on, and the saviors are seldom privy to the humorous ways in which they are viewed and spoken about by their less than reverential needy masses.
I get what you are saying, but either I’m a terrible communicator or there is a tendency for people on this board to develop narratives in their head about what I must be like based on their own stereotypes of Peace Corps volunteers et al.
I’m a lot more Bill Easterly than Jeffrey Sachs, if you know what I mean. I think half the aid industry should probably be shut down, the other half turned over to local governments and NGOs, and foreigners should compete on even grounds- it’s often our good luck that we are able to get the education that provides us with skills and experience of international value and we can and will use those to compete on the international skills marketplace, but I’d be surprised if the aid worker as we know it makes any sense a decade from now. I’d throw a big party when my job description no longer exists, my foreign salary is no longer competitive, and I’m not welcome into countries under terms any different than your ordinary tourist or businesswoman.
I did enjoy my time abroad as a teacher. I was able to contribute pretty much no more and no less than any other dedicated teacher- which is to say quite a bit on a personal-connection level, probably not a ton on a “save the world” level. I made a few lifelong friendships and had a chance to be a part of some very two-way cultural exchange (it is a net good, for example, that we have some nice friendly Americans in China and Muslim areas, if just to counter some stereotypes from the military and business types that often consist of many people’s only experience with Americans), which I do think cultural exchange is a general good that makes the world a bit broader for everyone- be it the Peace Corps volunteer in Costa Rica or the foreign exchange student from Sweden.
I don’t think many teachers can keep up illusion of “reverential needy masses”. Kids are cheeky little punks round the world. I’m fairly sure I was the needy one most of the time- lost, barely able to communicate, baffled by basic household chores and sick as a dog half the time. But most of my time was pretty normal- drinking beer at happy hour with my co-workers, writing lots of lesson plans, and hanging out in the neighborhood.
There are “great white savior” types in aid, but they are usually young, faith-driven, and don’t last too long. It is by far one of the most pragmatic and cynical industries out there…burnout and bitterness is much more common than naivety.
Maybe because they aren’t so innocent, more like willfully blind. Corrupt organizations especially outside of the West tend to be rather obvious to anyone that bothers to do even the most basic research.
Cite?
I know rather a lot of people who have adopted internationally. As far as I can tell, all of them did research to ensure that the process by which their children were adopted was legal and didn’t approach baby selling. But whenever adoption is involved (outside granny or an aunt taking over parenting, and often even then), you can’t learn everything yourself. As Dangerosa says, there’s no way an adoptive parent can investigate for themselves, which is why agencies exist.
There are millions of children in the world who are not being cared for in a “forever” family. That this is a consequence of local conditions of poverty, disaster, or political repression should lead us to try and address those conditions (and, indeed, adoptive parents are historically very active in these efforts), but shouldn’t make us throw up our hands and consign those children to their current existence when there are families who are capable of providing a forever home.
–Cliffy
You see, if it wasn’t for Us stealing children, polio would be eradicated by now. It’s not religious intolerance or the spread of idiotic anti-vaccination rumors that is holding back immunization drives, but rich white people stealing babbies!
I’m gonna return those kids right now, assuming I can get a refund.
Ban international adoption.
Problem solved. 
And if that was just a wee bit too simple, put pressure on those foreign governments to provide some social welfare, so that parents don’t have to play
Chadian roulette dropping their kids off at the orphanage to make ends meet.
So what you are saying is, if we can find somewhere selling the kids in the $20-30k range, then there may be a lucrative business opportunity out there?
I can just picture you sitting in a cheap bar, speaking those exact words to your latest date. I can also picture him very bored and sick of your shit.
Um ok, sorry for your unreasonable level of pissed-offnessed.
For future reference, whenever you see that even sven has posted a thread and a handful of posters come out of the woodwork, not to comment on the actual content of her thread, but to basically say “haw haw haw even sven posted something!!” and to use any of the following:
“We have much to learn from them.”
“It’s a part of their culture!”
“Any response in a font like this.”
It’s because they came from the Giraffe Boards, where the grudges of 2003 become the lame in-jokes of today. And before I get accused of dragging shit from other boards, I’m not the one doing it, I’m just the one pointing it out.
Let me make myself clear, I was a nonny back in the day and I don’t have anything against snark per se. I’ve got my ancient hate-ons same as anyone else. But snarkers, please bring something relevant and original to the table, not stale shit like this. K thanksies.
Can someone help me out? What’s all this “We have much to learn from them” business that’s apparently associated with even sven? Is it just a remark on her posting style, or is it actually in reference to a specific post I should be aware of?
ETA: Oh, hadn’t refreshed the page. The above post is exactly what I wanted.
Actually, stealing Africans is a time-honored AFRICAN tradition.
http://autocww.colorado.edu/~blackmon/E64ContentFiles/AfricanHistory/SlaveryInAfrica.html
Let’s be honest. Everybody likes stealing Africans.
My brother is coming home from a two-year PC stint in Kenya in a couple of months. I’m hoping he’ll be able to smuggle a couple home for me in his suitcase.
The “We have much to learn from them” is only funny if you’re at least the tiniest bit clever about it. For example:
We have much to learn from them.
Anyway, it seems like no one is particularly interested in the issue since it’s obvious that it’s immoral to steal children from the third world, except for the people who think it’s okay to steal children from the third world.