That seems like a rather odd goal, especially with regards to Dex’s posts in this thread, which seem to indicate a disdain for the use of such words in general, rather than specifically at other posters.
Beyond that, I think the ability to refer to groups a poster may be in, even with the proviso that doing so in order to deliberately insult that poster may be moderated, is going to ensure civility between poster isn’t going to happen. An accidental insult, or generalised insult, can be as offensive as a specific one.
I admit that some of Dex’s posts do give that impression, but I think the rule in Ed’s sticky in The Pit is quite clear, ie "the following expressions should not be directed at other posters". (italics mine).
I suppose the best way to clear it up would be to ask. Is the goal of this rule increased civility in general, or increased civility between posters (if it is one or the other, at least)?
You know, sad to say, as a general rule, I’d rather be with polite people than with people as ain’t so polite. Yeah, there may be bad apples in there, but I find politeness to be nice to be around.
The idea that politeness and crassness are mutually exclusive, and that an absence of crassness indicates politeness; and
The idea that crass people are less good people–that it’s a value judgment rather than an aesthetic judgment.
As you’re no doubt aware, people can be utterly horrid twits–the words sort of supercilious hypocrites–without uttering one profanity. Similarly, people can be utterly charming and kindhearted saints while swearing like a sailor.
For myself, I’d rather be around the asshole who’d say, “Fuck you!” when that was the appropriate sentiment than around the smirking buffoon who considered a lack of profanity in his utterances license to snip at and denigrate everyone else. N’est-ce pas?
. I’ve used bold font for emphasize. I assume that you don’t want to be around the asshole who’d say “Fuck you!” when it was inappropriate?
Our feeling is that saying “fuck you!” is NEVER (well, hardly ever) the appropriate sentiment between members on the Straight Dope Message Boards. “Fuck you” is a sign-off, go away, I never want to deal with you again. We want to create a community here where we are, indeed, going to deal with each other. Thus, even when flaming someone, “fuck you” is not appropriate here when addressed at another poster.
Having gone to other boards where silly name calling seems to be encouraged, I’d say that this board and it’s rules are better. Being around dudes who were acting like 12yo: “heh, I can say ‘cunt’ heh, heh” is hardly conducive either to a community or fighting ignorance.
Thereby I am an “elitist” according to your definition. :dubious: If *that’s *the definition, then I am proud to be one.
This only makes sense if your definition of “fuck you” is universally true, which it isn’t, and if there are no allowable attacks that are equivalent to your definition, which there are. So your rationale here is an epic fail.
ETA: For example, you can most definitely tell someone “go away, I never want to deal with you again.” No rule against that, right? But “fuck you” is out because it means exactly the same thing, at least according to you.
Of course, the company you keep is entirely your business, and I wouldn’t want to interfere there at all; however, in my case, it’s just that I appreciate a genuine kick in the ass more than a fake smile.
Neither is being around a bunch of smug, aloof snobs that hide their anger (and sometimes, outright hatefulness) behind polite façades. I’ve been on message boards where people were allowed to cuss like sailors, and nevertheless the discourse was at least as civil (and sometimes, considerably more so) than it is here; ultimately, it’s the people that make the company, not the rules.
I’m not saying you’re not allowed to choose the company you keep, quite to the contrary; however, if you then go on to pretend that choice is somehow intrinsically better than any other, then yes, I’d say that that’s pretty much the definition of elitism.
Actually, the “childishness” issue is one of the reasons i’m not so bothered by it. I mean, really, if someone invites me to fuck off, i’m going to be unbothered. If someone does call me a cunt, what do I care? Strong language is an easy route to go, it can be used against anyone and in any situation. It’s not hurtful or offensive because it isn’t specific.
To the contrary, i’m considerably more bothered if i’m called a liar, or a hypocrite, or if someone comes up with some clever insult specific to me or my behaviour. I’ll certainly grant you fighting ignorance for the most part, but in all honesty, I would tend to say that strong language, in terms of interaction between members, is probably the least likely thing to damage a community short of no insults whatsoever; because it can, for the most part, be disregarded.
This is purely an impression on my part, but it seems to me the more vicious and lasting exchanges between posters have been when insults have been personal to another or their argument, not simple cries of “cunt!”.
Interesting article. And the author is correct that cunt does not bear the same stigma in the UK. One sees it often in the quality press here (except for Murdoch’s Sunday Times, which idiotically still asterisks words like shit, crap and bloody, one of the reasons I dropped the paper years ago, well, that and the introduction of a horoscope in the magazine).
It’s also heard on the regular TV channels from time to time.
For me, the reason the language rules in the Pit don’t make sense is not because I love calling everyone nigger cuntfaces, but because they’re fundamentally illogical. If you want to have a forum where members can flame each other only within reason, make that the rule. Just use a common sense approach – when someone goes too far, have a mod step in and ask them to dial it back a notch. This way you don’t have to equate “oh, fuck you, you illogical idiot :rolleyes:” with “fuck you, you fucking fuckface asshole cunt fucker!!1!!” More importantly, this would cover truly awful personal attacks e.g. “I laughed when I heard your infant son drowned in the bathtub” which, while profanity free, are truly nasty.
Make rules that directly reflect your goals. A blanket prohibition on using a few magic words in a certain way is pointless, IMO.
However, we have a bunch of the most nit-picky, rules-lawyering bunch that ever graced a keyboard around here.
Your way requires a(nother) judgment call by mods, and invites the “but my calling Fred a Z wasn’t any worse than what X called Y, why didn’t you mod-smack him?”. Ed’s way (at least the rule we wound up with after the initial brouhaha) gives a more exact rule, even if it’s silly in some applications. It stops the over the top verbal attacks using those words with a rule that is less subject to nit-picking.
It doesn’t stop personal attacks that don’t contain those specific words, so those need mod judgments, but they needed mod judgments anyway.
Yes, I have had an occasion or two to notice that…
Exactly. You will always have to rely on mod judgment. And the mods have said since the beginning of time that we don’t want a legal code rule system – the current Pit rules are far more like a legal code than what I’m suggesting.
I think that most cases could be handled simply by a mod stepping in and saying that a certain post or posts are getting too nasty and to dial back the venom. Of course people are going to nitpick and argue with some of those mod actions, but that kind of comes with the job. If you can’t handle people nitpicking and arguing with you, you have no business posting here, let alone moderating.
I don’t want to be around that asshole at all. It’s almost certainly going to be his other behavior that pisses me off, though. Lying, twisting words, false accusations of lying, false accusations of malicious motives–these are the behaviors that piss me off. A simple “fuck you” doesn’t really bother me.
If I can get the search I’m running in another window ever to run, I’ll offer the same counterexample I’ve offered before. Spectrum implied that, because I defended the right of a homophobe to wear a homophobic t-shirt at school, I was okay with the plight of gay teens, and I didn’t care if they committed suicide. It was an appalling, obnoxious, venomously low blow. Instead of letting the venom destroy the GD thread, I pitted him with a simple link to his obnoxiousness and “Fuck you, Spectrum.”
Under those circumstances, the phrase conveyed precisely the denotation and connotation I wished to convey: contemptuous anger.
Here’s the thread. It’s not a phrase I use very often, but I maintain that under the circumstances, it was pretty much the correct response. Do you disagree, Dex?
As for the idea that we don’t want our messageboard to be one where “we are, indeed, going to deal with one another,” that’s plainly not a goal you’ve succeeded in, given that you’ve allowed not only an ignore list, but a description of one’s ignore list. You also allow people to say “I’m through with you,” or other sentiments that convey that idea much more explicitly than “fuck you” does.
Thanks, Giraffe, I nearly spurted my vodka and tonic on the keyboard. That’s gotta be the funniest bit of bullshit I’ve read on the Message Boards in a lonnnnnnnnnng time.
That was, of course, the original premise. That was the way we wanted to run things. That’s always been the way we wanted to run things: don’t be a jerk was originally felt to be the only rule we needed. And then, the clamor and outrage were overwhelming. People whined that the rules were unclear, unfair, not specific. Mods were reammed up and down and beaten against the wall. “He got away with saying ‘Oh, fuck you, you fucking fuckface asshole cunt’ so why can’t I say ‘Oh, fuck you, you fucking fuckface asshole cunt fucker!’?”
Yeah, what a great idea, let’s drop all these fuckin’ rules and just go back to “Don’t be a jerk” and leave it up to the mods to administer ad hoc. HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH. Again, thanks for my biggest laugh in ages.
BTW, the other posts I’ve read in this thread over the last few hours are either rehashes or stupid nit-picks that deliberately miss the point – in short, attempts to bait the mods. Once upon a time, I thought that posters were sincere in their questions, and I tried to answer them honestly and openly. I’ve learned, in the last few months, that’s just not the case. Trolling comes in many forms, and the game of “bait the mod” isn’t one that I care to play any more.
