Can you be both pro-choice but against the concept of abortion?

Great Debates
41

I’m pro-choice and while I wouldn’t call myself “anti-abortion,” I’d say that it’s always–at the very least–a morally gray area.

On the other hand, there truly are plenty of pro-choice folks out there who are not against abortion on any grounds at all. After a long discussion on the subject in which I said I could never believe in any situation that any abortion was 100% a good thing, a friend of mine shrugged her shoulders and said she didn’t have any moral qualms about it at all. Ever. Even partial birth abortions don’t bother her. She can’t really give me a reason why (but I think it’s mostly because she believes that any expression of doubt by pro-choicers increases the risk of losing the right to choose in the U.S.).

All I know is that it makes me sick to my stomach to know that someone I respect so much feels that way.

42

Personally, I would be VERY frightened if I met anyone that said he (or she) was pro-abortion.

Well, okay, so I wouldn’t be frightened, just befuddled.

And, frankly, I see no problem with Weirddave’s bumper sticker idea, damned Trekkie bastard though he may be. I imagine everyone takes it that bumper stickers are condensed down to simple ideas, glossing over specifics. If I saw that bumper sticker I would take it as saying, “If you’re thinking about an abortion, at least give adoption a consideration first.”

43

parlo americano: Actually it is a very real idea. But it is more in line with philosophy than emotion. I don’t think there is any emotion in that.

I think that alot of the pro abortion arguments are emotional.

People who don’t want children should take steps not to have any. Birth control is readily available. If someone gets “caught up in the emotion”, etc. (which by the way is very immature) there is a morning after pill. I think it is feasible to prescribe it the first time around. But I am still a firm believer in taking responsibilty for your actions. If a mother doesn’t want the kid, then they can drop it off at the nearest hospital (no questions asked) or they can put it up for adoption. Older kids do get adopted. And the reason parents have to spend years on the waiting list is because of abortion. Killing the baby has become the norm.

When a woman gets an abortion, she is not informed of the developmental stages of the baby in most areas of the country. She is not informed that she has options. Planned Parenthood doesn’t give out info on adoption or perhaps keeping the baby (which a friend of mine just did…she is getting alot of help for her very brave decision)…at least the planned parenthood in my area. In areas where the mother is given the information to make an informed decision, the abortion rate has gone down.

Now if we want to call abortion a medical procedure, should we not give women the information to make a good decision concerning the procedure. As of right now, in most areas, that is not happening.

44

As a data point, I’ve noticed several folks who have self identified in various debates on these boards and elswhere as “pro abortion”. Not “pro abortion rights”, but “pro abortion”.

I make no claims about the percentage of “pro choice” folks who would fit that category…other than that I suspect it’s not as tiny a number as some would suggest.

45

I pretty much fall into this category when it comes to first trimester abortions (I wouldn’t go as far as your friend and extend that to partial birth, though).

Seriously. If, say, my mom came to me tomorrow and told me she had an abortion before I was born, I’d feel bad (understatement, but whatever) for her for having to have made the choice, but I wouldn’t really feel one way or another about the abortion itself.

If a couple is being extraordinarily irresponsible and repeatedly eschewing birth control in favor of having (first trimester) abortions after the fact, my beef would be with the fact that they’re being stupid, not the abortions.

46

Weirddave, I actually consider aborting a lump of tissue before it becomes an unwanted child the more responsible thing to do.

Even if the child was going to loving adoptive parents, I would still feel that I was seriously compromising my responsibility to my child.

If you don’t agree with the “lump of tissue” assessment, I can see why you would disagree.

47

Ya know, the more I think about it, the less I care whether someone without a uterus thinks my decision would be “gutless.”

48

My whole take on the pro-choice but anti-adoption issue is this:

If my GF or her daughter, or my sister, or (if I ever have one) daughter, comes to me because she’s pregnant and asks my advice, I would advise her to keep the baby and remind them that the ultimate decision is theirs to make. Then I would suggest they talk to someone who’s actually had a baby, since I have no idea what it’s like.

The day I have to squeeze a football out of my penis after nine months of my kidneys tossing the ol’ pigskin around in my body, then maybe I’d have an idea what it’s like. That doesn’t even take into consideration the care the football will need after it’s out (and right here is where the whole football-as-baby analogy falls apart, since throwing and kicking footballs is actually encouraged). Until that day, I figure it’s not my business unless someone asks me. So in the same vein, I feel it’s not the government’s business either and so abortion should be legal and perform by doctors in a healthy, sterile environment instead of a back alley or the backseat of a Volkswagon.

So, peronally I’m pro-life. Politcally I’m pro-choice. I’ve never had a problem reconciling the two.

49

It would be your choice, nowhere here have I ever said that it wouldn’t, in fact, I have repeated over and over that the woman’s choice supercedes all other concerns.

However, this forum is called “In My Humble Opinion” and now you know what my opinion of abortion is.

I don’t understand this, however:

How so? It seems to me the choices are 3.

1: Carry to term, give to loving couple, child has a better life than you can provide. ( leaving out odball scenerios like Dangerosa has been focusing on, this is the goal of adoption and the usual outcome, I think )

2: Terminate the pregnancy. The lump of flesh is gone and a potential person will not be. Hitler, Mother Theresa or Joe Six-pack, nobody will ever know.

3: Have a baby that you are unable/unwilling to care for and keep it. Certainly not a bad solution, as long as “unwilling” goes away, “unable” can usualy be coped with and-suprise-most folks find that they really are “able”.

Now, 3 is not applicable as long as you raise the child in a loving home. However, if you are unable to do that ( raise the child in a loving home where it’s basic needs, including love, are met ), how is that or #2 preferable to #1, to the point that #1 can be clasified as “seriously compromising my responsibility to my child”

I just don’t understand this statement, can you clarify?

50

That last was to Podkayne, Crunchy snuck in while I was typing.

51

Moving this to Great Debates.

52

You know, I was mostly agreeing with you until you said this. You either are overly optimistic about the parenting skills of many people, or you have low standards as to what you call “able” to parent.

There are tremendous numbers of people out there who are either emotionally, financially, and/or physically unable to be a good parent to an unplanned child. My limited family law practice has demonstrated time and again that often enough, the people who keep their unwanted children are those who would have done their kids a greater service by making a different choice. Most of the ones I know, personally and professionally, may be willing but are not doing a very good job. And their kids suffer for it.

And I’m not even talking about the wanted children who are badly parented. I see plenty of those, too.

No matter what the statistics are, though, you really seem to gloss over how challenging it is to be a good parent.

53

Hell, we’re not in IMHO anymore, but I’ll weigh in.

I dislike abortion, and would prefer that no woman ever had to have one. I would prefer that all women has easy and inexpensive access to effective birth control and used it. I would prefer that every pregnancy was planned for and desired.

I would also like a small private island with candy volcanoes and a single-malt lagoon and Kim Catrall in a body stocking to serve me pizza and beer every afternoon at three.

I reckon that’s not going to happen either.

So, knowing that cheap, effective birth control is not ubiquitous, and knowing that sexual education is severely lacking in this country and around the world, and knowing that some people are just plain gonna be dumb about sex, well then I guess I’m pro-abortion.

54

Well, I agree with you, but I was trying to be fair to a position I don’t understand. Since “I would be compromising my responsibility to my child if I didn’t keep him myself and raise him in a crappy household where I could remind him every day how he RUINED MY FUCKING LIFE!!” dosen’t make a lot of sense and Podkayne seems too smart to say something like that seriously, I was trying to construct the best possible scenerio for #3

55

As we can see here, it is entirely possible to be pro-choice but anti-abortion.

I personally, though, don’t think I’m quite pro-choice. I’m not exactly pro-life either. I’m somewhere in between that is hard to explain. I’m against abortions. I see it as a last resort.

I see a fetus as life. When it is conceived and the first month or so, while it’s true that it is “only a mass of tissue” it will grow to be more. Anything that grows, IMO, is a living being. And no, I don’t see the “Then what about sperm and egg, everytime you have a period or ejaculate outside of the vagina is murder too.” argument. Sperm does not have the potential to grow into a baby after nine months by themselves. Ovaries do not have the potential to grow into a baby after nine months by themselves. But when an egg and a sperm are combined, it does, and will grow into a human after nine months. So, with this being said, an abortion to me is like killing a life.

As a disclaimer, though, I should say that the following is what I would do, and how I feel. I realise that not everyone feels this way and might even find my views outrageous, but I don’t mean to be picking people out. It’s just how I see it.

I don’t believe that people use abortions as a method of birth control. I know sometimes birth control “just doesn’t work” and a baby ends up in there. But let’s face it, sex = baby. It’s the whole reason animals have sex. Sperm + egg = babies. Of course, pleasure is a reason in humans, but biologically, the only reason we should be having sex is to have babies. Defending yourself with a “We used all sorts of birth control, but it happened, and we couldn’t handle a baby.” just doesn’t work for me. If I were in a relationship, and if I were to have sex with my boyfriend, no matter how unprepared I would be for a baby, I know there is a possibilty that will happen and I will take responsibilty for it even if he won’t.

It’s sad when pregnancy results from rape. But unless the victim does not speak up after she is raped, she will most likely get the 72 hour pill. It’s not an abortion pill but more like a condensed birth control pill that prevents any conceived embryos from implanting itself. It works, I believe I was told, 99% of the time (sorry, no cite). Of course, for that 1%, the embryo implants itself and a pregnancy results. I realise that carrying this unwanted child to term is a terrible strain, both physically and emotionally. This is a case where I might see how an abortion will come into play. But, personally, if I were in that situation, I would consider adoption over abortion. I believe it takes a really strong woman to do someting like this, and I know that not everyone will be strong enough to handle it.

I feel that abortion is the best way to go when it comes down to a truly unwanted child. If I know I will not be able to provide a loving home for said child, I would choose to give it up rather than kill it. I don’t get all the “What if” situations. What if the child gets abused? What if the child finds parents that will be a way better parent than I ever will be even when I’m ready? What if the child have birth defects? What if the child is born healthy? “What if” doesn’t solve anything. I know that birth defects can be detected early in this day and age, but some do not show up until later. I do see having an abortion being a choice when it comes to birth defects, but only when the parents absolutely cannot handle a baby with birth defects. But otherwise, even with problems, why is a child with problems valued less than a healthy baby? This is a tough call for me, and I don’t know for sure right now what I would do, but I know there are choices out there for me.

I’m not sure what else I can say. I’m a bit distracted right now, so I hope I didn’t sound like a rambling idiot. Of course, I’ve never been in a situation where I had to decide, so I guess one can’t really have a say in these until they’ve experienced it.

56

I’m interested to see anti-abortion folks recommending the morning after pill. Do you not just consider that an abortion pill? The anti-abortion crowd over here certainly does.

57

One thing I think is weird is the notion that abortion is “irresponsible,” or that a woman that chooses to abort is somehow cheating her way out of the consequences of sex. Can this belief be defended on a logical basis?

58

Well, consider the context. You were pretty emphatic with your “never believing in any situation” there, so an emphatic reply seems likely.

If you do consider that choice is a right, you don’t need to have moral qualms about allowing someone else to have that choice. Why should you? You may well have some regrets that it became necessary, but still be 100% sure it is the right choice given the circumstances.

As for partial birth abortions, I’m just astonished and horrifed at the way the debate seems to have gone in the US. These are the absolute LAST ones anyone should ban. The “pro-life” nutters have just fixed on it because the pictures are gorier, so it’s good publicity, the hell with the facts. These are the ones that are medically essential - the foetus is already dead, or has no brain at all, or the mother will almost certainly die if it goes on. There was a Salon article about it a month or three ago.

Counterfactually, if I were going to have moral qualms over someone else’s decision, it would be over the early abortion of healthy pregancies, not these distressing medical emergencies.

59

Being a homo, I decided long ago that I was much too distant from any pregnancy that might take place to expect to have any say in what should happen to it.

I don’t think abortion is a very wonderful thing, but I definitely sympathize with the arguments about risky pregnancy, difficulty of adoption, etc. Frankly, I wish people would just wear the damn condoms to begin with, but apparently certain people can’t be bothered to explain this to their kids, or else not to get too drunk to remember to use them.

60

When there are uncountable children that already exist and need those loving parents? Rather than create more adoptees, shouldn’t we take care of the existing ones in Asia, Africa and South America, not to mention Eastern Europe?