Can you buy kosher food from non-Jewish businesses? (and about Loubavitch)

There’s this bakery in my neighborhood where I usually buy my bread They sell nort-african pastries too, and are “arab”-looking. So at first, I assumed they were arabs. Until the day when I noticed the placard on the wall stating “the oven is alight by Mr. X…etc…”. Then , I assumed the owners (it seems to be a family) were actually Jews of North-African origin who for some reason had an unusually arab look and had retained north-african habbits (the pastries, for instance).

But yesterday, one of them mentionned the Ramadan while speaking with a customer. So I asked. they told me they were muslims, so I enquired about the placard. They told me that no, Jewish religious authorities didn’t reserve these certificates to Jewish-owned businesses.
Which seemed somehow weird to me since I hadn’t noticed until then a shop selling kosher food products which appeared not to be owned by Jews. So, a rabbi would light the oven. But still, the bread, the pastries, the sandwiches etc…would be prepared by muslims, cooked by muslims, handled by muslims, etc…Wouldn’t it be an issue? They even sell things like “quiche lorraines” , the recipe of which include a kind of bacon and cream, which would as unkosher as humanely possible. It’s my understanding that one (say a restaurant owner) can’t sell prepared kosher food items including meat and others including milk prioducts in the same place. How could they then sell something kosher prepared by a muslim employee presumably handling pork meat?
Now, a last question. These kind of certificates usually mention the “Paris Beit Din”. But this one mentioned the “Beit Loubavitch”. I haven’t noticed such a thing previously, but very likely I never really paid attention and it’s only because the whole situation seeemed weird to me that I noticed the difference.
But what difference does it make exactly? Are the “regulations” on food different for the Loubavitch? Can an orthodox Jew, for instance buy food in a shop certified by a Loubavitch authority (I never noticed an orthodox Jew in this bakery, and since I shop there regularily and there are a large number of them in the neighborhood, with two synagogues essentially both across the street, I assume they never shop there)?

Now, another question which cross my mind. Is there a way to tell apart a Loubavitch? Do they dress in a particular way, or something? I’m asking that in relation to the presence of two synagogues so close to each other. I used to assume that they were used by two different denominations, but someone told him they actually were used by two comunities belonging to the same denomination, but originating from two different places in Algeria. However, though this man is both Jew and a long-term resident of the neighborhood, what he says isn’t always reliable. So, after reading this placard in the bakery, I wondered again whether there could be a Loubavitch community in the neighborhood. How could I tell?

Although I’m quite sure many on both sides would literally die before admitting it, Arabs and Jews ARE related, as in genetically very similar. This is no puzzle, since both groups originated in the same part of the world, the Middle East. So a LOT of Jews have an “Arab” look to them. Jewish families who have been in Europe a long time look a little less Arab due to crossing with the local populace, but even there many individuals retain MENA characteristics.

Nope, they don’t - however, such businesses are required to follow certain rules in order to obtain certification. In the US, it’s not uncommon for items produced by non-Jews to be certified kosher.

I note you are in France - as I said, this sort of situation wouldn’t attract a second look in the US, but maybe it’s not so common elsewhere. Cultural differences and all that.

Nope. Not as long as they followed the guidelines to make the food kosher.

If they’re really Muslims… that ain’t bacon. It may resemble bacon, but it’s not made from pork.

There is no prohibition on meat and milk dishes being sold at the same restaurant as long as certain rules are followed. For instance, if you order meat, they won’t serve you anything with milk at the same meal. Dishes must be kept separate - one common technique is to have two distinctly separate color of dishes. So, all the red dishes are used for meat dishes, and all the blue dishes for milk based meals. (Or vice versa) This also means you have two sets of busboys (one for each), you have to keep them separate during washing and storage, and so on. But it can be done.

Also - the religion of the person preparing the food is irrelvant in this case, provided they follow the rules for keeping things kosher.

And, again, if these folks are Muslim they are NOT handling pork! If anything, the prohibition against pigs is even stronger in Islam than in Judaism.

This one I’m not entirely too clear on, but there is more than one group certifying things Jewish. (Cecil actually did a column on this some years ago). The certificate just states which agency did the certifying. Some Jews are far more strict than others in observing the rules.

If they are who I think they are, it’s not that the regulations are different, it’s that they’re more strict in their interpretation than other groups.

As an example, pretty much all the other Jews will consider something kosher if a Lubavitch rabbi certifies it as such, but the Lubavitchers tend to not trust some of the other Jewish groups on following the rule. So, while any Jew would trust a restaurant run by Lubavitchers to meet kosher standards, Lubavitchers (at least around here) are infamous for feeling the other Jews are not strict enough and frequently won’t eat in their establishments because they have doubts about the food being kosher enough.

Certainly - if they want to. There may be other reasons than food laws that Orthodox Jews do not visit Muslim businesses and vice versa.

Here in my area, because the kosher and hallal dietary laws are so similar, you often find Jews eating in Muslim owned restaurants and vice versa, and Muslims traveling on airlines will ask for kosher meals since, until recently, very few folks knew what “hallal” was. I’m not going to claim Jews and Muslims love each other around here - they don’t - but there isn’t the same sort of murderous tension that exists in other parts of the world between those two groups.

Um… I’ll wait for one of our more-Jewish-than-me Dopers to answer that. I’m assuming your “Loubavitch” group is akin to our “Lubavitch” crowd here, so yes, there are some differences, but it’s a subtle thing. Unless you’re pretty familiar with the groups you may not be able to tell at a glance.

Thanks for the answers but I’ve some disagreements with some of your comments :

Actually, from what I can tell, Jews physical appearance is more related to the places where they and their ancestors had been living than to them having semitic roots. Ashkenazis rarely look anything like a typical arab. And anyway, people around here are mostly Sepharads. But even so, they rarely look as “arab” as the family owning this bakery.

Thanks for clarifying this too…

Indeed…

I believed that muslims were allowed to eat kosher food as well as hallal food, but that it didn’t work the other way around. Are you sure of it?

Possibly. Actually, since they went to the pain of having a certificate issued, I assume that they must have some Jewish patrons. But their business might indeed be shunned by the orthodox which are the only ones I could notice.

Most cetainly. “Lou” in french would be pronounced the same as “Lu” in english, hence the difference in spelling.

I’m not particularily familiar, as you can tell. I was just wondering.
By the way, what does “Beit” or “Beit Din” means?

Thinking twice, even if it weren’t pork, but another meat, it still wouldn’t be kosher. So, could the certificate be valid in such a case? Could the bread sold in the bakery be kosher (since the certificate specifically refers to the bread oven) while other non-kosher foodstuff is sold in the same shop, for instance?

“Beit Din” means “house of judgement,” a court of three rabbis who settle business disputes and determine whether someone is ready for conversion. I guess in this case, in Paris, they’re also a kashrut certification authority.
(In the U.S., the Orthodox Union, Star-K, and several others are the certification groups.)

The Chabad-Lubavitch are a vocal branch of the Chasidim Orthodox movement. The Chasidim are the ones in the black hats and coats, but I can’t remember from when I was in Israel or Brooklyn if there’s a way to differentiate the Lubavitch from the rest of the Chasidim.

As far as I can tell from my knowledge of kosher and halal food laws, halal is a subset of kosher. As a Muslim, there are no restrictions on mixing meat and dairy, and some of the foods that one is denied under kosher law are allowed under halal law (I think). So, if a Muslim eats kosher, they’re fulfilling halal law and more. However, it doesn’t work the other way since not everything that is halal is kosher.

Muslims do indeed handle, cook, and serve pork. One of the things that makes Bahrain such a great little holiday from Saudi is the availability of pork over there. They don’t exactly push it but many grocerys and restaurants serve it.

Regards

Testy

clairobscur:

Actually, Kosher baked goods do need to be baked by Jews…that’s why the sign mentions that the oven was turned on by that Rabbi…turning on the flame satisfied this requirement, according to Jewish law.

The other steps in food preparation, though, do not necessarily need to be done by Jews.

It’s also possible that the Orthodox are not as noticeable as you think. I’d imagine that Middle-Eastern style foods mainly appeal to a Sephardic Jewish clientele, and often enough, even Orthodox Sephardic Jews will not wear a yarmulka, which you’d probably consider the distinguishing feature of an Orthodox Jew.

The equipment would have to be completely separate, but I suppose such arrangements are possible. The bottom line is, if the standards satisfy the local Beit Din, they’ve no doubt ensured that the Kosher stuff does not come in contact with the non-Kosher stuff.

I’m not sure what a Yarmulka is. Is it the same as a Kippah (though I suspect not since it’s a different word) ? Then, no, since I’ve met many a Jew wearing a kippah who wasn’t noticeably religious. Or perhaps the little thing wore on the forehead which contin, if I’m not mistaken, bits of the Torah? (then no, either, since I never seen anybody wearing that in real life).
Seems it was another assumption from my part. Actually, I was refering to the Jews I see everyday in the neighborhood, which always wear hats, are dressed in black, bearbed, etc…I assumed thoses were orthodox.

I makes me curious, but I can’t really ask to visit the kitchens. Though I could possibly ask whether they do keep apart kosher and non kosher food. I assume I wouldn’t be the first if they catter for Jewish customers, but it seems still somewhat akward. For some reason I’ve doubts about them being that cautious. Do the Beit Din conduct regular inspections, or somesuch? For how long is such a certificate valid?

And also someone told me that Beit Din = house of judgement. But what is written isn’t “Beit Din” or “Lubavitch Beit Din” but “Beit Lubavitch”. Would this be correct? Does it means something like “House of the Lubavitch”?

I wasn’t precise enough. Actually I was only thinking about meat. I was under the impression that the meat of animals ritually slaughtered by Jews was OK for a muslim (I’m quite certain of this since I listened to an interesting speech from the rector of Paris mosque on the issue of food allowable or not for muslims living in non-muslim countries) but that the contrary wasn’t true (and I’m not that sure about this part).

Yes. It just means the local Chabad is the one providing the certification, not the Beit Din, and that it’s “good enough” (for lack of a better term) for the Lubavitchers.

Kippa and yarmulka are the same thing.

Broomstick I admit it often. Have you watched a Jeff Goldblum movie lately? Heck, there are Jewish Arabs. Are Judaism and Islam related? Absolutely. A quick read of the Torah and the Q’uran will reveal we both claim descent from Abraham (Avraam to us, Ibraheem to Muslims) and that we serve the G-d of Abraham. The shameful thing is not that we are related so closely, but that we fight so much. Philadelphia has plenty of restaurants that are certified kosher and halal. A few are jointly owned by Jews and Muslims. I remember a marvelous article covering the opening of one of these. The reporter asked ‘What do you say to people who are surprised that you are not fighting?’ ‘Fight? This man is my cousin! G-d wants us to love one another and live in peace!’ ‘Also, He wouldn’t mind if you’d come to our deli.’

Riding the train in Philly, I have yet to have a Muslim look at yarmulka and insult me. Many however, note that I Jewish and greet me with ‘Salaam alekim’. I smile and respond with ‘Alekim salaam’.

Forgot this:

Have you read the Staff Report by C K Dexter Haven? He confirms that it is so, i.e. Muslims are permitted to it kosher meat, if halal is not available, but Jews are only permitted kosher meat.

Thanks. But then, if a kippah is enough for an orthodox, who are these bearbed guys wearing black hats?

It’s a tradition thing. Many of the Orthodox groups wear some some sort of hat over their kippa. There’s a saying ‘you can tell how traditional a Jew is by the size of his hat.’

Although not Jewish myself, I have had the pleasure of working for Kosher Overseers Association of America (KOAOA), just one of many organizations that certify that food has been prepared in accordance with applicable religious laws.

One reason why there are so many groups is they squabble violently amongst themselves on how to interpret the Mosaic laws, not to mention the various levels of orthodoxy that exist. I recall an angry letter the Head Rabbi once wrote to a rival Jewish organization accusing them of poisoning Jews because of their wrong interpretation of the Law.

An organization like KOAOA will, for a fee, certify that the food is prepared properly, which will include all steps in the handling and all ingredients used in all steps. It may include more, like WHO prepares it if the organization feels that is important. For example, a container that held milk cannot be used for non-dairy products unless it is properly purged (by religious rituals rather than sanitary means). A Rabbi is dispatched to check the company’s methods, and if all is Kosher (really), a certificate is issued. This has to be renewed periodically, which give them another chance to bill the client. ;j

And the symbols used on products are copyrighted, which is why you see different ones with a similar meaning. Sometimes companies pay to be certified by more than one group, just to avoid lost sales to picky customers, I guess.

KOAOA has Rabbis on staff or on call around the world, and they are one of the smaller groups that do kosher certification.

To get back to the OP…

There is a Iranian grocery around the corner from my house. They sell all sorts of middle eastern foods including halal meat. (They have spices at great prices, by the way.) It also seems that about 20% of their stock is imported from Israel. Many other items are made in the US and Kosher. The owners and customers seem just fine with this.

clairobscur:

Yes. “yarmulka” is the Yiddish word, “Kippah” is the Hebrew for the same thing.

Those are called “Tefillin,” and are only worn during prayer services.

They’re a subset of Orthodox, but many Orthodox wear the same street clothes that the majority of the locals wear.

Usually random, unannounced checks, but some establishments will be told they require constant supervision (restaurants often need this…and this applies equally to Jewish-owned as non-Jewish-owned).

Varies from Kashrus organization to Kashrus organization and from establishment to establishment. I’ve seen certificates that require quarterly renewal, and I’ve seen certificates that require annual renewal.

Precisely.

Sorry, I missed this one and asked the same question latter in the thread…

Not quite true, as alcohol is strictly against halal food law, even to the point of excluding vinegar (made from alcohol) and soy sauce (brewed and containing a very small alcohol percentage) for some strict Muslims. Whereas alcohol can be Kosher.