Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?

[Corcaigh]

@Terr

Here is a portion of the article: http://rssbroadcast.com/?p=148279

That could have been written about my older brother. He’s not the firstborn, but he definitely didn’t like me when we were kids. I don’t think he acted out as badly as the child in the article, but he was vicious towards me. He’d break my toys, and when no one was looking/listening he’d scream abuse at me.

He’s in his 50s now and he still breaks my stuff and screams abuse at me, but these days he doesn’t care if someone is listening or not.

He has a history of failed long term relationships in his life - I can think of 8 girlfriends that he’s had, and I’m pretty sure all of them dumped him. He blames me for several of these break ups even though we don’t live in the same country.

Just after our father’s funeral he went completely ballistic at me, and even my mother (who’d always smiled indulgently and said “boys will be boys”) admitted that she was frightened of him.

He has, thankfully, kept his distance since then - I hope because he heard third hand that I’d reported him to the Gardaí.

He has a child, who is now old enough to have a Facebook account, and knowing that I’m online searched and found me on there. I use my real name and had my online handle in brackets. I was asked what the name in brackets meant and told them, and that if they Googled it they’d find sites I was on (none of which are NSFK).

What I didn’t know was that said child was at my brother’s house using a laptop, and he saw this conversation. And he Googled my username. The kid texted me to tell me “by the way, Dad saw us chatting online”.

He rang me one evening and suggested that we meet up [next time he was in Ireland] to “discuss your behaviour”, he wanted me to go for a drive “somewhere out the country” with him.

I refused to.

I have a genuine fear that he will either kill me or do me serious injury if he gets the chance. Not necessarily because he’ll actively approach me with the intent of killing me, but will loose his temper because I looked at him the wrong way, or breathed too loudly, or left a speck of dust on the mantelpiece, or whatever traumatises him, and he take a swing at me and either hit me in the ‘right’ place, or cause me to fall and injure myself.
I hope that studying children like the boy in the article brings about something that will separate these malignant meat bags from the rest of us, so no one else has to live in fear of them.

[Spiff]

@ralph124c

I read the article also…scarey…it sounds like that old “Twilight Zone” episode, with Opie (who has supernatural powers).
But there’s also “Oppositional Defiance Disorder” (ODD)-which translate to: the kid doesn’t want to obey the parents.

My 14-year-old daughter was just diagnosed with ODD in January.

It’s not a pleasant thing to deal with.

[Sunspace]

So I guess the underlying question is, what do we do with these people?

[Malthus]

@kambuckta

Such a heartbreaking story though. Like Terr, I can’t begin to imagine being a parent to a child like that. It’s the stuff horror movies are made of.

I’m not a religious person, but if I was, I’d be thanking the gods each and every day that my little boy is full of empathy and compassion for others.

Reading that article really makes me realize what a treasure he is - the stuff he does that pisses me off is such a nothing, so minor, as to hardly even register. Like begging to have another story read, saying he’s not tired … then claiming to be too tired to brush his teeth! Or goofing off and daydreaming when he’s supposed to be doing his homework.

[Bootis]

@Sunspace

So I guess the underlying question is, what do we do with these people?

What can you do? While a high % of criminals/killers/what-have-you may be psychopaths, I’d bet bet the majority of children incapable of feeling empathy or compassion don’t become criminals, but instead grow up to become cold,uncaring,but productive members of society who don’t commit any crimes because they would rather live comfortably than go to jail.

[Maastricht]

@Bootis

What can you do? While a high % of criminals/killers/what-have-you may be psychopaths, I’d bet bet the majority of children incapable of feeling empathy or compassion don’t become criminals, but instead grow up to become cold,uncaring,but productive members of society who don’t commit any crimes because they would rather live comfortably than go to jail.

We used to send them out to fight our wars for us. Utter recklessness and callousness are great traits to have in one-on-one combat.
Nowadays, even in our wars we need team players, careful strategic people, with social skills and responsibility. So I’d say send them off to hire-a-mercenary school. Or let them all become professional fighters, boxers, kickboxers.

In other words, we can’t use them anymore. I would be in favour of putting them down, if we had a 100% sure test.

[Rachellelogram]

@Maastricht

In other words, we can’t use them anymore. I would be in favour of putting them down, if we had a 100% sure test.

Even if it was *your *kid?

[TokyoBayer]

I almost couldn’t read the whole article. As a parent, I can’t image how someone would deal with a child like that.

Spiff, you have my sympathies. That has to be hard. What do you do? Is everything pretty much a fight? That’s really too bad. I hope things work out. Are you getting help?

[jz78817]

@Anne_Neville

This is one of the things I’m really afraid of, as a parent-to-be.

Callous and unemotional are two of the last words I would use to describe myself- my problem is that I can’t keep myself from crying when I’m upset, scared, or angry. Maybe my daughter will inherit that. That’s annoying, but it’s better than being a psychopath.

++

This is one among many reasons I don’t want kids. You don’t have any kind of “undo” button you can click if you end up with an evil little shit for a kid. You’re stuck with the demon.

[kambuckta]

@Jackmannii

Unfortunately, the article provides no indication that sociopathic behavior can be contained, much less reversed. The child under discussion only got worse at the facility attempting to treat him, and there was no indication that others improved.

And that is true at this stage of our understanding which is why we absolutely need more research into the issue. Merely acknowledging that young children can display psychopathic (or callous/unemotional) traits is a big step forward: looking at the reasons why such children develop (or are born) this way might give us some tools for future treatment programs.

IOW, I don’t believe that we can say that we can never find solutions.

[monstro]

@kambuckta

And that is true at this stage of our understanding which is why we absolutely need more research into the issue. Merely acknowledging that young children can display psychopathic (or callous/unemotional) traits is a big step forward: looking at the reasons why such children develop (or are born) this way might give us some tools for future treatment programs.

IOW, I don’t believe that we can say that we can never find solutions.

I don’t believe in absolute certainty either. But I’m trying to imagine treatments that wouldn’t be downright creepy.

Let’s say we get to the point where we can identify cardinal signs of sociopathy from a young age, like people are doing with autism. Do you put them in early intervention pre-K? Start doping them up with oxytocin-enhancing drugs? Brain surgery to stimulate the frontal cortex? OK, maybe those aren’t so bad.

But how do you explain what you’re doing to yourself and others? “My two-year-old is showing signs of lacking a conscience and the doctors say we must act now.” You can misdiagnose someone as autistic or having ADHD and everything can still work out. But what happens when you misdiagnose a kid as sociopathic and they know it? Isn’t that kind of messed-up?

[cynyc]

I had to log in to see the article so I didn’t, sadly.

All I know is that kids with untreated ADHD get arrested a lot. But I think this is about something bigger. I believe they’ve discovered brain anomalies, say, in serial killers.

If anybody has the article please PM it to me or something

[TokyoBayer]

@FairyChatMom

My daughter teaches 5th graders - mostly 10-11 y/o - and she claims she can tell already which kids are most likely to wind up in prison.

Here’s an interesting article on that:

How To Create a Juvenile Delinquent With Materials Easily Available At Home
(. . . )
By carefully following kids from toddlerhood into early adulthood, Patterson has found that the kids who grow up to get in trouble – arrests, drug use, and jail time – tend to have experienced a particular pattern of reinforcement. There are lots of other ways to grow up to get in trouble too, obviously, but this is one clear pathway.

It begins before the child even starts school.

Step 1: Begin with a lively, active, stubborn, or difficult child.

Step 2: Teach the child that disobedience makes rules go away.

It’s easy. Ask them to put away their toys. When they don’t, ignore it and pick them up yourself. Or yell at them, but don’t make them do it. If they cry or whine or yell, tell them they can do it later. Or tomorrow. When they hit their brother instead of picking up the toys, send them both upstairs in separate rooms, where their other toys are. All parents do this sometimes. Parents whose kids grow up to get in trouble tend to do it a lot.

Step 3: Let the child teach you not to ask them to do anything they don’t want to and not to correct them when you don’t like how they behave. It is exhausting working with an uncooperative kid. Why ask them to turn off the tv, when last night it wound up in a two hour tantrum that left you both exhausted and angry? One of the most important steps to training a kid to behave badly is simply to stop trying to parent them because it is so, so hard and it never seems to work. Reinforcement works in both directions. And the more you’ve trained them not to listen, the better they can train you not to parent them.

And it goes on from there.

However, this and psychopaths are not in the same league.

[Farmer_Jane]

Corcaigh, that sounds horrible. I’m really sorry to hear that.

I’ve seen ‘bad’ kids in my teaching, but only a couple were well, bad. To me, it’s hard to see a kid as ‘bad’. They’re just kids.

But some of them…I mean, they were just heartless. Stalking, sexual assault, constant violence, cruelty. Other kids get into trouble and show remorse. Or maybe they’re part of a gang but still remember my birthday and bring me a treat. You know what I mean - kids who still have a shot at normalcy, but are ‘troubled’.

But these psychopaths in training?

<shudder>

I don’t know what I’d do if that were my kid. Probably smack him across the room (honestly - and we don’t hit in this house). Of course if I had a real psychopath for a kid, it wouldn’t do any good, so…yeah.

<shudder>

It’s like a problem with no answer.

I finally stopped talking to my father a few months ago. I feel a lot better. Most of us are convinced he’s a total sociopath. He just does.not.compute. So I gave up. I don’t love him because he’s not ‘real’ to me. And he can’t hurt me because he’s just mentally and morally incompetent, so it’s as pointless as being angry at a baby. He’s pretty much soulless, so why bother?

[Pyper]

@TokyoPlayer

Here’s an interesting article on that:

I find it highly ironic that an article purporting to explain common misperceptions about the terms “reward” and “punishment” gives an incorrect example for punishment:

When my dog comes up to me expectantly, begging to go out, and I ignore her, it decreases the likelihood that she’ll do it again (i.e., it is a punishment)

No, ignoring the behavior is called extinction. The behavior receives no consequence, therefore it will extinguish. Now, if you hit the dog when it begs to go out, that would be punishment.

[TokyoBayer]

@Pyper

No, ignoring the behavior is called extinction. The behavior receives no consequence, therefore it will extinguish. Now, if you hit the dog when it begs to go out, that would be punishment.

This really is tangent to the thread, so I’m not going to really continue this, but the article says they are using the terms specifically.

To a behaviorist, the words reward, punishment, and negative reinforcement are defined by whether or not they increase or decrease the likelihood that the behavior that preceded them are going to happen again. It has nothing to do with whether reactions themselves are pleasant or unpleasant.
(. . .)
Punishment is anything that decreases the likelihood that a behavior will happen again. You give me flowers, I don’t really pay attention, you’re less likely to do it again. When my dog comes up to me expectantly, begging to go out, and I ignore her, it decreases the likelihood that she’ll do it again (i.e., it is a punishment) and increases the likelihood that she will meet her needs in other ways (i.e., by peeing on the floor).

I’m not a behaviorist, but the Wiki article on punishment, seems to support this definition.

[/hijack]

[Bad_News_Baboon]

@rachelellogram

I really think it’s a bad idea to house sociopaths with other sociopaths. They will feed off each other and continue learning more sophisticated manipulation techniques in a group setting. And if a kid learns to manipulate OTHER sociopaths, manipulating the neurotypical is a walk in the park, comparatively. It’s like a twisted training ground.

I agree. I don’t think anything positive can come of this group setting.

[Breccia]

Reading the linked article I was understanding it until —> the story of the cat’s tail being amputated, methodically, over a period of weeks. Huh?
Perhaps my husband and I spend an inordinate amount of time with his 10 yr old BUT for the love of god how could a kid pull this off? uh, we also feed our cat and interact with her daily. oh, yeah, she also gets brushed daily (as she’s shedding…) Wouldn’t there be blood, on the kid, on the cat, in the kid’s bedroom?

Search the article for CAT + you’ll find the story.

[Bootis]

@Bad_News_Baboon

I agree. I don’t think anything positive can come of this group setting.

If they are doing productive research and observation that would be a big positive.

[Zsofia]

@rachelellogram

Even if it was *your *kid?

It’s my half-brother. If he were a chicken the other chickens would have long ago pecked him to death.