Kaufmann’s this weekend? Aw, shit! You know, I had two gift cards for Kaufmann’s and spent them last week on presents for my mom and sister, because I couldn’t find anything. I did see a nice suit in Penney’s junior section (a basic jacket and pants that would have done), but I didn’t have any cash on me. Dammit!
Usually I wear a nice white button down blouse and a long black slim skirt.
Only an idiot would base their hiring decision on dress alone. But if you have two equally qualified candidates, would you hire the one who didn’t make any effort in their appearance, or the one who shows an awareness of what dress is expected in the position? I know which I’d hire.
I hired three out of four candidates for three positions I had to fill. I hired one who showed up in jeans, though the other three all showed up in dress clothes. The one I didn’t hire wasn’t qualified, IMHO. But if he had been equally qualified with the guy who showed up in jeans, Jeans Guy probably would have not been hired because he made no effort to find out what dress we would expect and dress accordingly. And that would have been a shame, because Jeans Guy turned out to be the best of the three we hired. But it would also have been tough luck. And we’re talking about an entry-level IT job.
Saying “it shouldn’t be that way” doesn’t make it so. Never has, never will.
That’s ridiculous, by your own definition. How could you possibly be expected to know that a business suit is not appropriate to McDonald’s? It’s like they expect you to be psychic or something!
Welcome to your eyes, ears, and telephone – tools of the modern psychic. It’s already been stated a bunch of times in this thread that you can simply ask the interviewer, HR, or receptionist how to dress. In fact, if I were a prospective employer, I’d be duly impressed that a candidate took the initiative to do this little bit of research. I’d be much more apt to hire this person than some sweatpants-wearing idiot who whines “But I didn’t know to dress up – I’m not psychic, you know!”
But I’m not a prospective employer. I was recently, however, an auditioner for several light operas. The auditionees who made the effort to dress for the occasion (as well as prepare a song) struck me as people who would take it seriously, who would learn their songs on their own and show up to rehearsal every now and then. Of course their mode of dress was by far not the only metric I was measuring, but if I had two candidates with equal voices, I’d go with the one who presented an aura of taking the show more seriously. And – and I know I’m pandering to the evil of Da Man here – the person who bothered to drag a comb through her hair and discard the beer-stained concert T in favor of a flattering and clean blouse is the one who is going to project that aura.
Guin, I have a lot of luck at consignment shops. And I’m not too proud to buy (decent looking if not well-constructed) clothes at Wal-Mart or K-Mart if I’m short of money and need something specific. Wal-Mart’s “George” line actually doesn’t suck too badly and right now they have some cute jacket/skirt suits for spring.
For the record. I have 4 positions to fill & I personally interviewed 18 applicants. There is another manager who interviewed at least that much. To say 18 applicants over 4 days is an awfully small ammount without considering any of the details of my business makes me want to challenge you to a duel.
Besides…I said 18 interviews, not 18 respondents. If I were to count every phone call & E-mail answering the ad as respondents, it’d be lots more than 18. Well over 150.
Other than that point, I happen to agree with the rest of your post, even if it forces me to ask…Are you mocking me?
Spectre of Pithecanthropus, you apparently missed the part where I said “once I hire you, you can pretty much wear what you want.” I don’t have a ‘dress code’ for the job, I’m just surprised to see the manner of dress at the interviews. BTW, fun, laid back & casual means Bremuda shorts & sunglasses, not jeans.
Some very vague guidelines are assumable. While I don’t expect guests to know which fork is the salad fork, I do expect them to make an effort to not throw up on me.
I’m kinda depressed we have such a batch of superficial folks here on the board.
And we’re back to the problem of someone not bothering to read my posts before replying. Here’s the Cliff Notes : Minimum standards of hygiene, cleaniless, and maintenance of clothes - OK!
Gotta start somewhere. No one yet has given me a reason why it’s a good thing to have this expectation of suits and ties in the business world yet, other than “that’s how it is, you can’t change anything, nothing ever changes just because enough people want it to!”
So you got a random sample of 18 people applying for a job, and your expectations were out of line for approximately 90% of them, and you’re calling me clueless? Sounds like your world-view’s the one out of joint. I’m not defending something, I’m attacking the entrenched superficial suit-and-tie mentality. And your response to mhendo’s a bit out of line, too - the phrasing in your OP made it sound like you considered jeans right out as interview attire, and that ties were practically a must.
For the record, I don’t drink.
“Didn’t sink like a stone”? You’re too modest man. It’s nearly reached 3,000 views, though I’ve yet to read any of the bits not about me. The only pit threads that I can make that are so popular are the ones I throw in periodically about homos and evolution. Oh, yeah, and guns. You got one or what? And yes, I *am * talking to you.
While you are designing - nothing. When you interact with others, maybe something.
At an old job we had quite competent engineers and designers who we did not let talk to internal customers on their own. One guy, who was a good designer, called a prospective customer stupid during a demo at a trade show. I’d worry that anyone clueless enough to wear inappropriate clothing during an interview would also be clueless enough to cause problems, or be limited in what he or she could do. Yeah, if the candidate could walk on water, no problem. But for your average Joe or Jane Designer, why risk it? That doesn’t mean suits to an engineering interview. It means no holes in the pants and no shorts.
Candid, I’d have to agree with tdn. Personally, if I’m interviewing, I’m visiting your website first, maybe doing a google search on your firm prior to the interview. Prior to the web, an interview meant a trip to the library. I’ve prepared answers for the most common questions and I’ve practiced them (not word-for-word recitals - I work better from outlines to make sure I hit my points), because for most people, self included, once the ball is rolling both sides are more comfortable. I’ve questions ready to ask for when the interview turns, and hopefully they’re not the tired, regurgitated questions of every applicant but something that shows I went the extra mile and I want the job more than any other similarly qualified applicant. I’m not talking about Candid’s Bob and David scenario. The one I see more often is Bob is slightly more technically qualified than David, but David came better prepared and presented himself better. Now, who’s the better candidate?
I also interview people. Because my firm does multiple interviews, as an interviewer I try to go beyond the basic questions. I’ll try and figure out if you’ve done any homework yourself, because in this job, I’ll expect you to go the extra mile for our clients.
I work in the financial services industry, and my firm does hire programmers. And you can bet your last dollar that if they don’t show up in a business suit they’re not getting hired (exception: we’ve had applicants whose luggage was lost by airlines). We get lots of applicants. I’m sure we can find someone equally capable who is willing to wear the suit. When the job market gets to the point that we can’t, then we’ll consider the guy in khakis.
CandidGamera, I swear, if I didn’t know better I’d think you were being deliberately obtuse.
You quote a post saying, in essence, “Do a little research on the company with which you’re interviewing,” and you deride that post as “superficial?” How the heck is it superficial to actually do research on the company where you presumably want to work?
The concept of one dressing up for public presentation goes back centuries. Surely you understand that this applies in business, as well. The concept of corporate casual dress has been a very recent development.
Does wearing a suit and tie help someone do their job better? Intrinsically, no. But in a business where appearance counts, bucking the trend can have huge rewards or really huge pitfalls. Regardless of your personal feelings, the vast majority of Americans will look at a person in business attire and think “success” compared to a person dressed in clean blue-jeans and a pressed t-shirt. I can give you any number of cites from temp agencies, employment agencies and corporate dresscodes to back that up, if you want.
Not saying that’s right, or that’s how it oughta be, but that’s how it is. And changing an attitude that’s been ingrained for literally centuries is not an easy task.
I get that a lot. I’m sort of uncompromising on certain points.
No, I’m disappointed in the superficial mentality that thinks the dressing-up is so very important that the failure to do that research, for whatever reason, is a fatal flaw in the applicant’s effort.
Still waiting to hear some evidence that having that expectation is a good thing, too…
Ho w about the other research mentioned? Think that’s a bad idea also?
If you don’t want to do research, wear a suit and no one will object (well, almost no one.) If you want to wear the minimal for the job, find what it is if you are not so engrained in the culture. If you want to give your prospective employer the impression that you don’t give a crap about their culture, fine, but you better be a superstar in other areas. As a manager I’ve had to deal with incompetent people and people who don’t get along with others. The former problem is much, much easier to deal with than the latter.
Out of line? I’m out of line because I made the suggestion that somewhere out there jeans might not be appropriate interview attire? I’ve been a fucking gentleman considering this is the pit. In the same sentence I call you clueless, I offer to buy you a drink. I’ve apologized for misconceptions. I’ve clarified & answered specific questions. I’ve even left EvilCaptor’s remarks stand on their own merit. You keep going back to my original rant while ignoring my subsequent follow-ups. You have a bunch of people jumping on you about your views & you are defending yourself…but what are you defending? The right to look clean & neat without a suit & tie? Oh right…your not defending anything…you’re attacking the “entrenched superficial suit-and-tie mentality.” Good luck. I’m sure you’ll be happy at the end of that sure-to-be-productive path.
If you look at the majority of my posts since the op, I agree with your point. See? You win! What are you railing against?
You don’t like the fact that expectations exist based on appearance. Boo fucking ho. Go live on a commune somewhere or tear out your eyeballs. I said I was shocked that everybody wore jeans. This isn’t GD…If I want to bitch about a bad day at work, I will. I’m sorry you take such a literal interpretation of my op. I’ll take the time to add that I don’t really hate them either, nor do I believe they have no future or talent. Happy? Go back & count the posts I made where I said I’d count out a qualified applicant if they wore jeans. Even one where the phrase “all things being equal” is uttered. Go ahead I’ll wait…
::twiddles thumbs::
Hey roger thornhill, how’s it goin’? Some crazy thread, eh?
I’m still waiting…
::hums to self…”Heaven isn’t too far away…”::
How’re ya doing there CG?
::goes over crappy applications::
Find any yet?
You might have seen things like this…
From post #36 “Wear what you want to work. That’s cool by me. I’m wearing jeans, sneaker & an ugly shirt right now.”
From #57 “I’m asking you to get the jist of my op. I’m not being impressed by these applicants—in any way, and their dress is just part of the problem.”
From #103 “I don’t discount applicants for wearing jeans if they look clean & neat.”
For the record…Yes, it has occurred to me that I need to change my recruiting practices. I came to that little conclusion before I made the op. In fact, that’s why I made the op…I was venting. So thank you to everyone who thinks I need to have a better grasp of what’s going to attract quality applicants…I know.
Mhendo, if I was out of line in my response to you, I’m sorry. Thanks for your additions to the thread. I thought I was just disagreeing with you, but I’ve assaulted CG’s sensitive side, and that side that will fight to the death over not being judged by looks.
CandidGamera Happy St. Patrick’s Day. I rescind my offer to buy you a drink because you are a jerk. I don’t think you’re a jerk because you dress well or not. I don’t even know if you are a man or a woman. If you interview the way you’ve debated in this thread, I wouldn’t hire you…even if you were the best dressed applicant I’ve ever seen.
But you don’t expect them to know the very basic and painfully obvious knowledge that you dress nice for an interview? How you regard this as such esoteric and mysterious knowledge is beyond me.
It seems like you’re accusing me of being superficial here. I’d like you to explain how you come to that conclusion. Or rephrase that last comment.
Yes, I get that part. And you completely missed the point of my little story. Fine – let’s take your response as-is. Why should minimum standards of hygiene, cleaniless, and maintenance of clothes be adhered to? Isn’t that just being superficial?
BTW, I’m not a clothes Nazi. I’d wear jeans (or shorts) and aloha shirts to work every day if I could get away with it. I hate wearing a tie with a passion that probably rivals yours. I truly believe that the requirement to decorate your neck is an absurd social custom that makes no sense at all. But that pain in the neck (HA!) is far outweighed by the joy I get when I receive a paycheck, a thing which makes it possible for me to pay rent and eat my favorite stuff, which just so happens to be food.
Paying rent and eating food are overrated. Ditch the tie and live free!
Crosses tdn, CandidGamera and EvilCaptor off of list of possible threats to job. Only 5,999,999,997 more names to go
I have no idea what you’re asking here, but I assume you want to know why everyone plays the game of dress-up. Your assessment of “It is the way it is because that’s the way it is” is probably correct. If you can singlehandedly change that, more power to you. I’ll be right by your side, cursing the decorating noose and cruel shoes. But until that time, the people that pay me money expect me to play their game. I like money. I’ll play.
But I suspect there’s another reason: It looks nice. For good or ill, as humans we like things that look nice. We like people that look nice. If you take your woman out to a swanky restaurant, is she more likely to wear a little black dress, or sweatpants? Hint: She wants to look nice. You want her to look nice. Does that make either of you superficial? When we eat food, we want it to taste good. Does that make us superficial? When we choose a chair, we want it to feel nice and soft on our bottoms. Does that make our bottoms superficial? When we read novels, we hope we will enjoy the story. Is that superficial?
Ain’t nothin’ wrong with aesthetically pleasing forms.
Damn … had a long post and the hamsters ate it. Let’s try again.
Let’s assume a few basic facts:
Let’s examine #3 there. You want to work for this company. Maybe it’s because of the pay, or maybe their benefit package is great, or maybe you’ve just always wanted to work there.
Okay. You do some research on this company. You find out what their company culture is, including their standard dress code for the department in which you’ll be working. Once you have this knowledge, you can do one of three things:
If you want the job, which is the best option?
Now, if you show up for the interview dressed in a way that doesn’t adhere to the company culture/dresscode, you’re telling the interviewer one of two things: 1) I don’t know jack-squat about your company, and I couldn’t be bothered to learn; or 2) I researched your company, and I know you want employees to dress a certain way, but I’m intentionally ignoring that company more. In both of these cases, you’re sending a strong message to the interviewer: My individuality is more important than the company’s goals.
On a personal level, I agree with this completely. But if your goal is to be hired by the company in question, you’re not maximizing your chance to reach that goal. In that case, you’re wasting your time and the interviewer’s time, because you’re not putting forth your best effort in reaching your goal.
D Odds, you’re not paying attention. I’d dress for whatever standard the employer wanted for a job interview. Have done so. Wore a suit and tie for decades, my man. Still thought it was stupid and wrong. You will not beat me out of a job on the basis of clothing, because a monkey suit is a monkey suit, no matter if it’s a three piece and a tie or a bright yellow rayon outfit with a corporate mascot on the cap. I’ll wear all with equal happiness – or unhappiness, if you prefer.
Most of the justifications I see for dress standards in the office boil down to, “It’s MY company and I’ll enforce MY upper middle class standards of dress because they’re the best!” Sick, sad world we live in, eh?