Can You Make Money in a Casino?

Where did you get the idea that craps was the worst table game? Craps and Baccarat the next best games after blackjack for the non-strategy player (-1.17% for Baccarat, -1.36 for the passline in craps). Compare that to -5.26 for roulette, around -5% for Caribbean Stud, etc.

There are some bets in craps that rank among the worst in the casino. The hard ways, the field bets… if you play craps, there is a simple strategy to follow to minimize the house’s vig: Bet the pass line or don’t pass, and take all the odds they will give you. That’s it. If you do that, you’ll get close to a breakeven game.

I’m the bitch who’s taking your money, that’s where I got the idea. True, the house % is fairly small on the pass line, and odds are the best bet in the casino- but very few people play just the line with odds. Craps players are freaking insane. They bet the field, they take come bets with odds- stack up a couple of those, then, seven out.They take place bets. Oh, yeah, they bet the hardways, they bet the prop bets. Then there’s the corner 6 and 8. The house % on the corner is something like 11%.
Now, figure this- craps is the fastest moving game in the casino. As soon as the dealers are done paying off, those dice MOVE. And on average, one in every six rolls is going to be a seven. So, even if you play just the line with odds, at 1.36%, you’re still going to lose your bankroll fairly quickly, compared to the other games.


“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no substitute for a good blaster at your side.” — Han Solo

Sure, if you make the worst bets on the table you’ll get shellacked. And I fully agree that the rapid pace of the game can kill your bankroll in a big hurry, especially if you stray even a little bit from optimum play.

Still, Craps is nothing compared to the slots. The average house advantage on slots in Vegas is about 6-8%. And you can pull that handle 400-500 times an hour. At $5/pull for a dollar slot, that’s close to $200/hr in house vig. And there are $10, $100, and even $1000 slots. Granted the higher limit games offer a better gamble (I think the average vig on the dollar slots is more like 3%), but the rapid number of plays is what gets you in the end.

Anyway, all of those games are strictly for the tourists. I’ve never played a hand of any game in my life where I didn’t have an advantage. -EV bets like craps and roulette hold absolutely no interest to me.

I’m not sure if it’s what sparked the OP, but there’s an article about this in this month’s Discover (which unfortunately is not up on their web site yet).

That’s right, folks, it’s:
Ask the Gambling Geeks!

agisofia:

Am I mistaken, or is the corner 6 and 8 exactlylike a place bet on the 6 or 8, except that it’s not off on the come out roll and pays 1-1 instead of 7-6? In other words, isn’t it a really stupid bet? (I’m still learning craps–it’s not a good game for the money, but it’s fun when there’s an enthusiastic crowd around the table.)

Also, while I’ve got you here, as a dealer, what is your take on tokes? It has always been my understanding that tipping a casino dealer is not like tipping a waiter, in that it isn’t compulsory but rather a reward for good service. I usually tip excessively if I’m at a table for a while, especially if I’m winning or if the dealer is really friendly. However, if I just sit down and play for ten minutes or so, I usually won’t leave a tip at all. Is that unreasonable?

Dr. J

The corner six and eight are incredibly stupid bets. Yes, they are even money bets, as opposed to 7 to 6 on a place bet. No, they’re not off on the come out roll. My take on tokes is, if the dealer is being polite and reasonably friendly, and you’re winning, you should be toking. Most folks toke by placing bets for the dealers, which is nice in blackjack, but on a craps table, we would prefer a straight-out hand-in, because of the risk of the bet losing. A pass line bet with odds is especially nice if it wins. There’s no hard and fast rule, but if you’re winning, somewhere between 5-10% of your profits is pretty good.
There’s nothing worse on a craps game than someone who is constantly pressing bets in weird combinations, throwing in multiple (and frequently redundant) prop bets, “press, press, press, take me down to seventeen inside, press, press, press, take me down” winning big, then walking away from the table without so much as handing in a dollar. And it always seems to be the players who work us the hardest who stiff us. I’m sure waiters and waitresses have similar experiences.


“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no substitute for a good blaster at your side.” — Han Solo

What *they all[i/] said.

Being a professional gambler is like being a tiny casino. You manipulate the odds into your favor, and then you try to maximize this advantage. It’s a total uphill climb.

Big casinos have it easy. They got a million games of blackjack in a day (nevermind roulette, and other specialty ripoff games like Let It Ride.) A single professional gambler needs over 2 years to get a million games. At a million games, a profit from an edge is almost guaranteed.

If you wanna make real money in Vegas, own a casino.


There’s always another beer.

It was only a matter of time before I messed up the codes.

Now I know how it feels like to be the rest of you. :slight_smile:


There’s always another beer.

Everyone seems to be dancing around a significant point - the best games to try and make money are the games where your own actions can have an actual effect on the outcome.

Craps is a completely random game (or as random as dice can be). There is no way that your own skill will determine whether any one number will come up over another, nor is there any way to predict when one number is due to come up so there is no way to manage your betting to take advantage of runs. You just get lucky or you don’t. The advantage of craps is that, when played correctly, the house odds are the lowest of any game in the casino. This means that if you continually bet the same amount you would lose your money less quickly than in other games. I like to play craps because it’s exciting and and moves quickly and the betting involves a lot of interaction and movement on the table. However, I know that in the long run, I’m not going to win money playing craps, but I am going to have a lot of fun, and if I happen to get lucky, my vacation budget might stretch a little further.

Oh, and when I talk about craps having a low house edge, I’m speaking only of bets where one gets paid fair odds. No prop bets, no center bets, no field bets. Those are stupid sucker bets. If one were to play a minimum bet on the pass line and then bet his ass off on every other “fair” bet available, the house odds in craps is miniscule and the expected value to the player is almost 1:1.

Blackjack is better than craps only if you play basic strategy and count cards. If you don’t count cards and then bet accordingly, the house edge under basic strategy is still worse than that playing full-out craps like I described above. BUT, blackjack has the advantage to the player of being able to predict the pattern of cards coming out of the shoe. So if you count cards and bet when you know when higher cards are more likely to show up, you can make your expected value positive. If you don’t count cards, then your expected value is still negative, even if you’re playing perfect basic strategy.

A lot of people are misinformed about the odds of playing basic strategy blackjack - they think they’re playing because of the best EV in the house when in actuality it’s just because they don’t understand craps. My dad had been going to Vegas for many years and just tried craps for the first time last month because I was there to show him how to play.

BUT, the best game to play in a casino is in the poker room, because aside from the house’s rake (commission), the house doesn’t have an edge - it’s just player against player. In poker there are actual playing skills that start to come into play and if one is a good poker player, then he won’t lose. He might not win all the time, but he won’t lose, either. That’s what’s important.

I mentioned in another post that I tried casino poker for the first time last month on my aforementioned trip with my dad. I’m going back to Vegas in July and I doubt I’ll spend more that 5% of my time playing any other game but poker.

I have to disagree, but we really are picking nits.

A good single-deck blackjack game will typically have a house advantage of between .25% and .5% with basic strategy play. Some single-deck games are breakeven or even offer a tiny advantage to the basic strategy player.

Craps odds, if I recall correctly don’t get down below 0.5% until you’re taking at least 20X odds. A lot of casinos don’t offer those kinds of odds. but more importantly, you’re having to put 20X your pass-line bet into action.

So if you’re choice is to play $5 blackjack or $5 craps, your best bet is blackjack. At 100 hands per hour and a .5% advantage for the house, it’ll cost you a measly $2.50 per hour to play the game, and blackjack has high enough variance to allow you a really good chance of winning.

With craps you’ll get maybe 200 rolls in an hour, at a house vig of about -1.3%. Cost per hour: $13.00. Even if you take 100X odds, it’s still costing you $13/hr. Yes, your overall disadvantage might drop to .2% or something, but you’re having to put much, much more money into play.

Now, if you were going to play blackjack at $100 per hand, you’d be better off playing $5 craps and taking big odds. But I don’t know ANY $100/hand bettors who are satisfied with playing $5 craps.

This brings us to another very interesting topic: Let’s say you AREN’T a professional gambler, but you’re going to Vegas soon and you want to play for fun. What are your chances of winning, how much money should you budget, and what are the best games to play? If anyone’s interested, I can take them through some of those decisions so they can learn exactly what to expect out of a Vegas trip.

i was just in a riverboat casino on friday and walked away with more money than i came in with. here’s my plan on winning on the boats: i found a quarter on the floor, found a machine that was jammed with 5 quarters (the nice lady who unjammed it gave me the quarters) and found a machine jammed with nickels (same result). so i bought a watered down beer and walked out. and walked right past a woman who jumped up and nearly hit me as she got a royal flush on a video poker machine and won 4000 quarters.

YOU GOT TO KNOW WHEN TO HOLD E’M,KNOW WHEN TO FOLD E’M, KNOW WHEN TO WALK AWAY AND KNOW WHEN TO RUN-YOU NEVER COUNT YOUR MONEY WHEN YOUR SITTIN AT THE TABLE THERE WILL BE TIME ENOUGH FOR COUNTIN WHEN THE DEALIN’S DONE -----SORRY I COULDEN’T HELP MYSELF-KENNY ROGERS

Best way to make money in a casino is to own one.

Brian,

You’ve been asked before…take off the caps.

Sam, how can I get those pointers from you? I’m feelin the need to go to Vegas sometime real soon!

Sam Roza

Yeah Sam, give us the straight dope. Oh, and how does someone like me, who doesn’t care too much for gambling, have a good time in Vegas? I heard that Vegas can be very cheap for those who don’t gamble because casinos want to attract people. Free shows and things like that. Of course, this was the Vegas of the late 70’s.

Hmm. I guess that would be a large factor. If you’re betting a small percentage of your entire bank roll, then the SD doesn’t matter much, and whatever measure of risk you’re using comes into play. This breaks down at a certain scale, right? If you have 1,000 people betting together with a combined bankroll of $1M, a bet size of $10k would entail more risk than one person betting $10.

If you want some gambeling try day trading. You can make profit but its not something that will pay the bills very well. :slight_smile:

Dan’s Guide To Smart Casino Gambling

Okay, you’re going to Vegas for a vacation. You’re not a professional gambler, and you don’t plan on being one. You’re willing to accept that the house has an edge over you, but you’d like to have a good time, spend as little money as possible while still getting that thrill from the risk, and maximize your chance of actually winning overall while you’re there. So, what can you do to make this all happen? Here are some guidelines:

Know your Games

There are a lot of gambling games in Las Vegas that actually have a very low house percentage. For the best of these games, the player is playing close to even-money against the house. However, there are some real sucker bets in Vegas, and if you get attracted to them you’ll get slaughtered.

There are two ways to look at how good or bad a game is - first, is the percentage of your bet that the house will eventually keep. Some games have a house ‘vig’ as low as .5% of your bet or less, and some can be as high as 30%! The second criterion is speed of the game. When the house as the edge against you, speed kills. The best chance for you to be ‘lucky’ and beat the house comes with the fewest number of plays. The more you play, the less chance you have of winning. And, your cost per hour goes up. Your best chance of beating the house is to find a game with a low percentage, and put your whole trip bankroll on one bet. Win or lose, quit. You’re very close to 50-50 to double your money that way. Trouble is, it’s not much fun to be in Vegas if you lose that first bet. So you want to draw a balance between how much you play and how likely it is to lose. The best way to do that is to find the slowest-playing games that have a low house percentage.

The Worst Games

In terms of the house percentage, the worst games you can play are:

  • Keno (-17% to -34%)

  • The Big Six Wheel (or money wheel)

  • The proposition bets in craps (the hard ways, etc) (-5% to -26%)

  • Roulette (-5.26%)

  • Slot Machines (-1% to -15%)

  • Caribbean Stud (-5.74%)

  • Most other small side games

In terms of speed, the fastest games in the casino are:

  • Slot Machines ( 200 to 400 Plays/hour)

  • Video Poker (200 plays/hr)

  • Craps (up to 200 rolls per hour)

  • Baccarat (150 hands/hour)

  • Blackjack (50-100 hands per hour)

  • Roulette (50 spins per hour)

The Best Games

In terms of house percentage, the best games in the casino are:

  • Blackjack (0% to -.8%)

  • Craps (-.4% to -1.2%)

  • Baccarat (-1.17%(bank) -1.36%(player))

  • Video Poker (.3%(rare) to -1.4%)

It’s no coincidence that the best games from a percentage standpoint also tend to be the fastest. The house can afford to take a smaller percentage if they’re getting many more plays per hour.

The big exceptions here are slot machines and prop bets in craps. They are both the fastest games in the house and have the worst odds.

One more thing: of the games above, only blackjack requires a reasonably sophisticated strategy. To play it inexpensively, you MUST learn basic strategy. There are lots of books around to teach you, and the casino will probably even let you keep a little plastic reference card on the table with you if you forget. Learn the strategy, and don’t deviate from it. Forget streaks, hunches, etc. If hitting a 16 agains a 7 is correct (and it always is for a non-card counter), then always do it. Never take insurance, even if the dealer is ‘due’ for a blackjack or is ‘on a streak’ of blackjacks (neither exist, of course).

If you don’t want to go through the effort of learning the game properly, I suggest you stick with mini baccarat or pass line bets at craps. Contrary to what the other players might tell you (especially the ones frantically writing on their little pads of paper at the Baccarat table), there is NO STRATEGY to these games. It’s essentially a coin flip. Put your money down, cross your fingers. To my way of thinking, that makes them as boring as watching paint dry. But to each his own.

Calculating your Cost of Gambling

So how much money do you need to play in Vegas? To figure out how much the casino will earn from you (if luck evens out), take the size of your bet, multiply it by the house percentage, and multiply that by the number of hands per hour that you’re going to play. For example, let’s say you’re going to play $5 blackjack (.7% house edge), for four hours a day. Here’s what the casinos expect to earn from you:

4 hours X 75 hands/hr X 5 X .70% = $10.50

Ten bucks for a whole afternoon of gambling is pretty cheap. Now let’s look at the worst games. Let’s say you’re going to play dollar slots, one dollar at a time for four hours. Typically, the house take will be something like 3% on machines like this (worse on quarter slots, worse yet on nickel slots). Your cost of gambling:

4 hours X 400 spins X $1 X 3% = $48

So it costs you $48 to play the slots. (the quarter slots aren’t much better - you’re risking 1/4 the money, but the house edge is often 3 or 4 times higher than on the dollar slots). Also, the slot payout includes the longshots, which you are unlikely to hit during a 4 hour period or even a weekend (or a lifetime). The more likely odds you’ll face at the slot machine is probably something like 5-10%.

However, there’s another factor - how much could you lose if you’re really unlucky? Without getting into heavy math, you can roughly figure that in one hour you could lose as much as 50 times what you should. Over 10 hours you could lose as much as 14 or 15 times what you ‘should’ (at 2 standard deviations). So if you’re playing $5 blackjack for 10 hours over a weekend, expect it to cost you about $26.50, but you could lose as much as $425, (or equally likely, win $375). Most of the time you won’t win or lose that much playing $5 blackjack, but winning or losing 200 isn't out of the question. If you plotted the results of 1000 players who just walked out of the casino doing exactly what you did, it would form a bell curve with the median at -26.50, and with 95% of the people being somewhere between down $425 and up $375. The other 5% will be somewhere above and below those numbers. As you can see, you only have to be a little lucky to post a profit over that time.

Let’s look a the worst case: You just saw ‘Hard 8’ at the theatre, and decide to go play craps and bet the hardways just like the pro in the movie. You’re betting $5 at a time, 200 times an hour, at a house advantage of maybe 15%. This fun little game will cost you $150/hr.

So, the difference between the best games (blackjack, $10.50 for four hours) and the worst (prop bets in craps, $600 for four hours) is a factor of sixty! And that’s with the same $5 bet size on both.

Size your trip bankroll

Given this information, figure out what game you want to play, take the total money you want to risk on the trip, and divide it into equal daily amounts. Let’s say you’re willing to risk $1000 on your trip, and you’ll be there for 2 days. Limit yourself to $500 per day for gambling. Based on the info above, you know that you should be playing $5 or $10 bets, and no more. Limit yourself to blackjack, baccarat, and pass line bets in craps. Take your time. If you lose your $500, you’re done for the day. If you win early, feel free to increase your bet sizes a bit if you want (but just a bit). Better yet, pocket the winnings and go buy yourself something nice with it.

If you lose half of your daily bankroll, you might also consider stepping your bet sizes down if you’re not at the table minimums. Remember, you’re in Vegas to have a good time, and that means staying in the game. But don’t be hesitant to just quit gambling at any time and go do something else. Vegas is like freakin’ Disneyland these days.

Next message, I’ll give you some peripheral ad

Going to Vegas on the Cheap

Hotels

When you book a hotel in Vegas, don’t just call and ask for the room rate. When you phone, tell them you want the ‘casino rate’. They’ll connect you to the gaming floor, and you can ask the person you talk to what their requirements are for the casino rate. He’ll tell you that to qualify you’ll have to play at least X hours of a game, betting at least X amount per hand. If you’re willing to do that, you’ll get the casino rate. And it’s a huge difference: At the MGM Grand, the normal rate for a suite is $248/night. The casino rate is $79. The requirements for getting the casino rate aren’t too bad, either. It’s typically something like 4 hours of blackjack a day at at least $10/hand (or equivalent for other games). For a poker player, usually 4-6 hours of play at any limit (even 3-6 or 2-4) will get you the casino rate. Some of the strip hotels have casino rates as low as $49/night. And remember, these are typically four-star hotels that are much, much nicer to stay in than the motel 6.

If they give you the rate, you’re now a preferred guest of the casino, and when you arrive you’ll be able to go through VIP check-in, etc.

Once you’re there, make sure you sign up for any player’s clubs or other special gambler features the casino has. These can shave another percentage off the house edge, and they also give the casino a way of tracking your play to maximize your comps.

Don’t be afraid to ask for comps. You’d be surprised at what you can get, even as a low-limit gambler. If you’ve been playing blackjack for a couple of hours, ask the pit boss for a buffet comp. Even at the low limit tables you might get one. If you’re a big bettor betting $100 a hand or more, you can expect a completely free room, all meals free, show tickets, etc.

If you are planning on going to a show, ask the pit boss for a line pass. This is one of the easiest comps to get because it doesn’t cost the casino anything. What it does is allow you to bypass the lineup and get seated before everyone else. Slide a $20 to the person seating you, and you’ll get front row seats.

When the casino rates you for comps, they’ll track the number of hours you play, and the limits you’re playing. They’re pretty good at this, but you can stretch this a bit by taking long bathroom breaks, betting a bit bigger when the pit boss is watching, etc. When you’re ready to leave, place a few bigger bets, then call the pit boss over and tell him you’re leaving right away and if he recorded your play. He’ll tell you what he’s got you rated for. If it’s higher than it should be, great - you just locked it in. If it’s lower than it should be, you can tell him that he must have missed some of your play because you certainly played longer or bet more than he thought. He may increase your rating just a bit. But don’t overdo it - they’re on to those kinds of tricks mostly.

When you’re ready to check out, don’t assume that you’re only getting the casino rate - You can go to the floorman in the casino and ask him if you can get the whole room comped - you have nothing to lose. He’ll either refuse or say okay, or he may offer to reduce the rate a bit more. Whatever he says, be friendly! Never argue or get huffy. If he says no, politely ask him how much you need to play next time to get the room. The last time my wife and I were in Reno, we were given two buffet comps without asking, just because we were friendly with the staff. We were playing low-limit poker.

Be on the lookout for special offers like ‘match play’ coupons. Some hotels will give you a guest pack consisting of coupons, discounts on show tickets and buffets, etc.

By being smart about comps and room rates, you can get more money back in savings than what the house expects to make from your gambling, which makes the gambling part actually profitable.

One simply should NOT gamble. I read a woman addicted to herion, sex & gambling. She said gambling was the hardest one to give up.

But you can play all these games online and not risk anything, whew.

I’d still take the field in craps & double each bet until I win. Eventually it would happen.