I was reading this article and a query arose: if someone apparently official says, “You’re not allowed to do that.” - with the implied threat of arrest - are you reasonably allowed to have them prove that the legislation actually exists? In SDMB-speak, “Cite?”. And if they can’t, what then? If they then try to arrest / restrain / whatever, are you then allowed to use reasonable force (which may be lethal) in self-defence?
“My Lord, the deceased tried to restrain me citing a law which I had reasonable reason to doubt. I challenged him on it and he was unable to justify his cite. He then attacked me. I therefore assumed the worst and acted in reasonable self defence…”
Note that in the U.K. most people have the power of arrest, even if they don’t realise it. You don’t have to be a police officer.
Are you entitled to proof of the existence of a law before being arrested for it, and;
Are you entitled to resist an illegal arrest?
1: No. While the arresting officer must be able to point to probable cause that you committed a speciifc crime in order to justify your arrest, he does not have to provide YOU with that information. After being arrested, you are entitled to an arraignment. This is a procedure in which you are brought before a judge or a magistrate and informed of the specific charges against you. Prior to be arraigned, there is no rule that requires the police provide you with the reason for your arrest, or the specific charges. Since this is so, it’s obviously not a requirement for the police to actually provide you with a copy of the penal code for your state to justify their claims.
Now, what of a situation like the OP refers to… the cops say, in effect, stop doing X, because X is against the law, and you don’t believe them.
Your choices are: stop, and do your own research later to clarify the issue, or continue, and risk arrest. Obviously, if you’re right, the arrest will be later shown to be invalid.
2: No. (Well, mostly no). At common law, you were entitled to resist an illegal arrest. This common-law rule has been eliminated in most every jurisdiciton in the US today. So, absent a specific state to refer to, the odds are overwhelming that resisting an illegal arrest is itself illegal. The cure for an an illegal arrest comes through the courts, not self-help.
Ah, I explicitly did not say police officer. Since it’s an offence (in the U.K., at least) to impersonate a police officer, one must reasonably assume that someone presenting themself as such is indeed one. However, we are talking about someone who is not so presenting themself.
As for your second point, could you not say that by his actions you had reason to believe that by surrendering, you would come to harm?
Even in jurisdictions that permit resistance to an illegal arrest, you will still be arrested. Moreover, you’ll be charged with the original offense *and * resisting arrest. You might or might not win on either charge.
I’m not sure either about whether resistance to an illegal arrest is permitted or not in the UK. Can you use lethal force to resist an illegal arrest, even in jurisdictions that permit it?
Let’s assume I’m allowed to use force to resist an illegal arrest. (Not in my state, of course, but this is pure hypothetical…)
Let’s ignore the fact that politics would call for me to burnt at the stake regardless of the legal facts of the case.
Officers are permitted to use deadly force as part of the reasonable escalation of force, even if the original offense is trivial, in “self-defense”, irregardless of whether or not their actions created the situation that is potentially deadly to them (the officer).
If I manage to successfully resist arrest, I’m confronted with two outcomes barring evasion on my part.
One is that the officer experiences an interruption of biological function.
The other would be restraining said officer.
Would the right to lawfully resist arrest include either of those two outcomes?
Ahhh… so you’re talking about if someone is executing a citizen’s arrest, but you dont think he knows the real law. Because he seems to be arresting you for something that you dont think is illegal.
Well 'round here:
Resisting Arrest by an officer is illegal. You cannot resist and officer making a legal arrest. That is a crime.
However, there is no crime of resisting arrest of a citizen. Even if that citizen is executing a lawful citizen’s arrest, you can still resist all you want. If you get away, good for you (hurray!) If he manages to subdue you until the cops arrive, you wont be charged with resisting arrest for what you did to that person. However, you might end up charged with crimes like aggravated battery if you resisted arrest with a baseball bat or something. But you wont be charge with ‘resist arrest’.
If a cop was trying to arrest you and you hit him with a bat, you’d be charged with your original crime, resisting with violence, and aggravated battery on a LEO.
If a citizen was trying to arrest you and you hit him with a bat, you’d be charged with the original crime, and maybe aggravated battery.
A citizen who performs an arrest does so at his own risk. You’re right, you dont know if the guy trying to arrest you may hurt you in some way. My advice would be to surrender on the grounds that they call the cops and DONT TOUCH YOU. The minute they start trying to put hands on you, you should resist. This is assuming you believe you’ve done nothing wrong.
Just wait for the cops, or hell, just leave. Citizen’s arrest isn’t really a power they have. It’s just kind of a “you’re allowed to use reasonable force to detain someone until cops get there” in certain situations. In everyday situations you’re not allowed to put your hands on people. This just says that you can if it’s a citizen’s arrest. But it doesn’t actually give you “arrest powers” or anything like that.
Also, there is no “citizen’s detain”. Any detention by a citizen is an “arrest”. And if it does not hold up to a lawful citizen’s arrest, then they will be charged with unlawful imprisonment, maybe kidnapping and maybe a whole bunch of other things. So they can’t use force to hold you while they “investigate” something like a cop can. They better have witnessed the actual event. And not be going off of testimony or something.
So…
You always have the right to self defense.
A person performing a citizen’s arrest on you does not need to explain to you what law has been broken and/or give you a cite.
You can resist a citizen’s arrest with force. But not deadly force. However… you always have the right to self defense.
The OP is basically asking a variation of the “loophole” or “magic words” theory of law.
In the modern world, there are no “magic words” that will allow you to do as you please against rightful authority. As the lawyers keep saying, you can fight it in court, but not until then.
In the U.S., the favorite “magic words” theories of laws involve tax evasion. Some of them are as beautifully contorted and insane as the worst 9/11 conspiracy theories. None of them work.
What restitution can you fight for in the courts if you do comply with an officers request that proves to have been legally unreasonable? What restitution can you fight for if you were to continue doing something against an officers request that you stop, then get arrested and then prove that the thing you were doing was completely legal?
Also how much proof can you require from someone who seems to be an officer of the law that they are actually an officer of the law? Is it possible to require the time to phone the police station the officer says they came from and confirm that the officer is indeed a law officer working there before otherwise complying with any orders given by that officer?
No I’m not: consider the case of a pervert trying to abduct a girl by pretending to arrest her. Bear_Nenno has the right of it and his answer is useful and illuminating.
I’m wondering if the OP was asking specifically about an ordinary citizen’s arrest, or about a situation in which someone is unlawfully impersonating an Officer of The Law. Those of us in the States surely all have at least one relative who forwards them those frightening E-mails about some woman, somewhere, who knew someone who heard about someone who was accosted by someone else dressed as a police officer but who was, in reality, a mugger/rapist/Limp Bizkit fan.
Mr. Slant, if I were you, irrespective of what I believed, I would not resist when the Word Police came to arrest me for the use of the word “irregardless.”
I used to work for a woman who would use this word on an almost daily basis and it always made me smirk when she did.
Nonsense. This is nothing like your OP and has little to do with reality. If the pervert is not a real police officer, then the girl will not be prosecuted in court. Period.
If you want to ask about the nuances of citizen arrest, then by all means do so. But that isn’t what you did. You tried to get cute.
Here’s a rule of GQ. The answers given will be as good as the question asked.
Hardly any. It would solely depend on the specifics involved. But the whole “good faith” thing will keep most cops and the department out of trouble. An officer would really have to be crooked for something to happen that was bad enough to get restitution. It would have to be an unusual situation where the cop was wantonly arresting you for ‘nothing’. Not only that, but he would have to be unable to even articulate a decent excuse for arresting you. That’s almost impossible right there, he should be able to come up with something that sounds good. . .
If it’s serious enough, he would have already tackled your ass and transport would be on the way before he ever convinced you of his authority. But if it’s not that kind of thing - if it’s say traffic related or something minor - than the burden is pretty much on him to prove he’s an officer. If you refuse to comply with someone because he hasn’t “reasonably” convinced you of his authority, then you’ll be okay later in court. Cops know this. And they’re also aware of the imposters out there and the safety issues. So like if you’re being pulled over by a plain looking car, then you’re okay to drive slowly and safely and legally to a well lit parking lot or something. He should completely understand
Some departments even have rules against officers doing things like that or getting involved in minor infraction when they’re not in uniform. It’s a safet and liability issue. Also, in such situations, the civilian looking cop will probably call to request a uniformed unit to arrive, so you wont have to bother with trying to call his department.
Oh, and you can ALWAYS say “please call a uniformed officer (or deputy)”. Just say “please call a uniformed officer. I want to comply, but I’m nervous. So I’ll just stand here until a marked officer arrives”. Like I said before, if it’s minor, he’ll be fine with that. If it’s major, your ass would already be on the ground subdued and contemplating the legality of the last 5 seconds. If you did fight during that time, it would be on him in court to prove that he properly identified himself and that a reasonable person would have believed he was an officer. It’s his burden, not yours.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Yes, it’s an extreme example, but it does fit the bill. And it has everything to do with reality. There have been cases in the U.K. of criminals impersonating officials (usually gas, electricity etc), usually to gain entry to homes to burgle them, sometimes worse. And those officials these days are quite happy to wait while the homeowner verifies their ID. Which is why Bear_Nenno’s suggestion is exactly right - and obvious in retrospect.
Just speaking from experience, but any time I’ve seen anybody try to play “street lawyer” and argue or query a cop or try to “resist” an arrest usually gets the crap beat out of him and 5 police officers standing on his limp form.
Just an example, but how many times have you seen someone articulate a legal point and the cop say “Oh, sorry…my bad. Let me get those handcuffs off of you…I’m swayed by your logic.”
Great, that was what I really wanted to know. I didn’t want to ever risk being called up on wasting police time, but also know I couldn’t tell the difference between a police officer with real ID papers and someone dressed like a police officer with good looking fake ID.
If a police looking person based on my door in the middle of the night without obvious cause, I would not want to open the door to them, but rather ask what they want through the closed door, and then ever phone the local police station to confirm they are really police or ask them to call for further uniformed police. Just to be sure the officer was legit.
