There’s a fundamental difference in that organ transplanta cannot be given universally because there is a shortage of organs. So someone must make a choice as to who gets one and who doesn’t. That’s just reality.
Exactly. Comparing addictions like smoking and drinking to vaccine refusal seems to be a false equivalence to me. You could refuse to pay healthcare to smokers and they would still smoke because of the addiction. It wouldn’t work. On the other hand, avoiding giant medical bills would be an incentive to get vaccinated especially if this was regularly broadcasted.
Transplanted organs are difficult to match and expensive to transplant. Recipients have sometimes made bad choices but are nevertheless entitled to treatment and dignity. Treatment does not necessarily mean every possible.
However, transplant surgeons are also heavily interested in having the transplant succeed. If your liver is fried due to years of drinking, to pick an extreme example, this should not make you ineligible for treatment including a transplant if you are willing to stop drinking and follow recommendations, and if the treatment is available and reasonable given the big picture.
However, if you continue to drink heavily than the transplant will fail, and no one wants to perform a futile treatment. Plenty of transplants fail under ideal conditions. Surgeons therefore are more likely to choose recipients that give the transplant the best chance of success. Although this simple example is an incomplete summary of medical thinking, the elements are there. Places vary in what they consider more or less susceptible and these points could be debated, and often have been. Smoking? Vaccines? For better or for worse, some surgeons take these simple things as indicators of seriousness about health.
Have to comment on a recent radio add here in Alberta. It is true and false at the same time.
It first states that over 40% of covid cases in the ICU are not vaccinated. So it is saying that over 50% of covid cases in the ICU are vaccinated. Then it states that you are 30 times more likely to catch covid if you are not vaccinated. But they just stated that only 40% of cases in the ICU not vaccinated.
Not surprised that the ad is no longer running.
Full disclosure. I got both shots, because I was forced to. I waited as long as possible to see the science. The science indicated they were mostly useless. I will not get a booster.
You might want to check your math before you go drawing any conclusions about science.
Respiratory virus dashboard | alberta.ca says 83.4% of the 12+ population is fully vaccinated. https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-vaccination-tracker-how-many-people-in-canada-have-received-shots-1.5247509 says that’s 70% of the total population.
Out of every 10 people, then, 7 are vaccinated, 3 are not.
Let’s put 10 people in the ICU.
Of those 10, if they matched the general population, 7 (70%) would be vaccinated, 3 (30%) would not.
However, you in fact have four of them (40%) unvaccinated, and six of them vaccinated (60%).
That means that there’s a reduced risk of being in the ICU with vaccination (70% → 60%) and an increased risk if unvaccinated (30% → 40%).
That doesn’t support the “30 times more likely to catch,” but most of the people who catch COVID won’t go into the ICU, regardless, so the ICU numbers can’t help assess that.
It DOES say that the vaccines reduce the risk of landing in the ICU with covid by 10%; maybe you deem that “mostly useless,” but I’d say that’s significant.
Edited to correct math with more accurate numbers.
I can’t find the ICU stats, but if you take a look here you can see the vaccine outcomes: https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#vaccine-outcomes
- 78.4 % of hospitalized cases (8,957/11,430) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date
- 67.5 % of COVID-19 deaths (1,148/1,700) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date
This unequivocally proves the efficacy of the vaccine. When you look at the outcomes by age, you see the 30x difference in hospitalization. I can’t get the table to format properly here, but look at the per 100K rates on Table 7.
I’m not sure where you reading science doesn’t prove out the vaccines, but you’re wrong.
Very weak ad. If ninety percent of people are vaccinated, you would expect nine out of ten cases in the ICU to be in vaccinated people if the vaccine was useless.
But the vaccine is good. So instead of cases, the media should be required to report cases per capita. These show clearly the massive benefit of vaccination in a way that does not mislead. And yet, the Ontario vaccine site does the same, reporting both cases and cases per capita in those with no, sone or full vaccination. And they shouldn’t.
You insert suppositions and complications.
The radio ad said 40% were not vaccinated. Pretty basic fact. Plainly stated by a government agency. No suppositions required. Unless you wish to obfuscate.
Also we are now hearing from government sources, that you can catch, transmit and still be hospitalized even after two shots.
That reinforces the concept that there will be a large portion of vaccinated folks in ICU.
Official sources are admitting the shots become useless over time.
Your reply as well as the replies and statistics from official sources are becoming ever more obtuse. But when you apply logic to the numbers. As well as even the raw science that the official sources reveal. The vaccines are a bust. Not very good in the short term. Useless in the long term.
Even their very concept of targeting one aspect of a complex virus ( spike protein ) was suspect from the start.
I love to see people reply with such complex piles of suspect data, inserted suppositions, and ignoring the basic thing that was stated.
Almost 40% of ICU patients in the ICU are not vaccinated. Therefore over 50% are vaccinated.
I notice that the government is not informing us how many of those who died of covid each day were fully vaccinated.
From all over the world. The science is coming in. The vaccines are not helping.
No, I don’t wish to obfuscate. I was just trying to explain the math, but if you’d rather cling to your counterfactual beliefs, I don’t know how to do that.
The first 3900 vaccine doses arrived in Alberta Dec 14th 2020. January 1 2021 is about 2 weeks later. So there is a large time span within the numbers you are quoting where most were not vaccinated. Could not have been vaccinated. Also the first stages of a pandemic shows bad cases and outcomes in the most vulnerable first. The numbers will be highest then. Now we are seeing higher case rates in fully vaccinated. Almost none in those with natural resistance due to beating the infection.
Again the numbers are being stated without applying reality and logic.
Explaining the math to me? You are explaining how more than 50% is less than under 50%?
So explain how 5 is less than 4.
Oh I see. If the vaccine is useless then you are 100% assured of getting the virus.
You are so logical. I can see you are well versed in the scientific method.
This is untrue. Do you have a cite?
Are you looking on an absolute or per capita basis? There are roughly 8 times as many vaccinated as unvaccinated. Unless there are 8x new infections in fully vaccinated vs unvaccinated, the benefit is to the vaccines.
There are more.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/312637
I can’t find it at the moment, but I recall reading a recent article where it did seem to be virtually zero. Will try and track it down.
I suggest using duckduckgo to search. And avoid the obvious nutty sites that do not have reviewed papers cited.
You have your stats backwards. according to the cite @FinsToTheLeft posted.
70.9% of eligible people are vaccinated in Alberta.
38% of cases are completely vaccinated.
26.8% of hospitalizations are completely vaccinated.
32.5% of deaths are completely vaccinated.
In order to avoid miscalculation of risk, it’s always a good idea to normalize by the population in each group to look at the infection/hospitalization/death rates. There are several graphs that show the data during the recent Delta surge in Canada. They show that unvaccinated have the following:
7-fold higher risk of symptomatic disease
25-fold higher risk of hospitalization
60-fold higher risk of going to the ICU
These numbers demonstrate an incredibly effective vaccine.
The source material.
Moderating:
Do not engage in personal insults to other posters. You may attack their posts and correct misinformation, but not attack the poster directly.
Not a warning, only guidance.
I pointed out an obvious falacy.
I have been told I cannot comprehend obvious math. Would you consider warning those folks?
One of your cites also concludes:
Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.
In no case is it a drawback to be vaccinated.
Please report the post you perceive as offensive and I will have a look. Thanks.
The radio ad is a fact. Though it is no longer playing. I did not refer to other things in that post.