Cancel Culture and Canceling versus consequences for actions

So this thread to off, and I’m trying to catch up. There has been some really good discussion to help me rethink my positions.

I want to start with a typical comment. Before I started the thread, I was debating “why are we string arguing about cancel culture when we have actual government oppression going on?”

But that’s not really a solid argument because we can be opposed to two different problems at the same time.

And while I don’t think the government oppression going on is “cancel culture”, the concepts certainly are adjacent, and I do think it is fair to point out the hypocrisy of MAGA complaining about cancel culture while cheering actual government trampling the Constitution.

Let me hit a couple of definitions as revising from my OP.

I accept that censorship refers to any limitation on another’s free expression. However, there are different kinds of censorship that have different value.

I think most of us agree that limiting others from using our property and likeness for expressing their ideas we disagree with is just a natural right. “Don’t put words in my mouth.”

The other end of the scale is official government oppression, the kind of thought police in the USSR, North Korea, China, and other autocratic nations. The kind of places where you can be disappeared for expressing the wrong ideas.

What lies between is different levels of types of censorship, from a private organization, a larger corporation, or a “watchdog group” getting legislation to force industry compliance with their private labels.

Cancel culture seems to be the sharing of personal opinions as a means of creating collective social influence.

In principle, this is no different than human social behavior since the dawn of time. However, there are some notable differences that come in to play because of the modern technology.

The first is that the internet and social media allow the sharing of information on a grander scale and at a faster pace than before. The barrier to access is significantly lowered, which means marginalized or small groups now have access to a much larger voice than in the past. This can be a good thing as it puts the power holders subject to a kind of scrutiny from which they used to be safe.

However, the same features mean that some outrage can get spread far out of proportion and far beyond the natural range of the affected community.

In order for us to actually address the complaints, we need to first analyze what the complaints are actually about.

I’ll post more on this later as I have to go to work.

Yeah, that was certainly… something.

I just don’t understand why this is something you need to ‘get away with’. Obviously it’s bad if you write some kind of racist caricature, but authors write about people they aren’t, and things they don’t do, all the time. That’s what research is for. And while I can understand why the rest might bother some people, we shouldn’t be hostage to people making superficial judgements.

I’m glad you’re not letting it put you off, but it shouldn’t be something you have to worry about. People should stop being so damn judgemental.

Still, I don’t think it’s likely to come up, and your friends sound like they would stand by you. That’s the important thing, not what self-righteous anons say.

What are you actually waiting for in getting it published?

People like to imagine themselves as pre victims of things that haven’t happened yet. They want to use woke as an excuse for their own shortcomings and failures.

For some definition of “plenty”. They’re very much a tiny minority, and mostly concentrated in Alberta.

Yeah, I think looking at it as a spectrum is useful. Governments can take a range of actions, from simply arresting dissidents, to threatening journalists, violently breaking up protests, freezing bank accounts as in Canada, leaning on universities or social media companies to exclude ‘troublemakers’ or censor information they don’t want getting out. And private actors can choose to censor on their own account, by firing employees, or in the case of specific industries, refusing to publish or stock particular books, censoring certain viewpoints on social media, etc. Cancel culture is another layer on top of these.

Sorry for the delay.

I think part of the problem with “cancel culture” is that the label is too nebulous and focuses on the wrong issue as the problem. It is difficult to correct a problem behavior if we don’t identify the actual problem. We can’t get a agreement that there even is a problem.

I think the real issue is not the “cancel” element. Rather, I think the real social issue is the effect of internet anonymity and the cultural effect of social media.

The same ease of access that allows marginalized groups to gain visibility and support also allows extreme views to gain undue influence. The anonymous aspects that allow dissenters protection in oppressive regimes has built a culture of extreme behavior expressing contempt for people and ideas that one is opposed to while feeling safe from retribution.

There is a separate effect where self-entitiled groups can create a limited access environment that feeds negative ideas and hostile behavior safe in the feeling of a secure majority.

It has become a cultural phenomenon where for any issue that sparks heated dissent, some asshole turns to threats of violence and murder as a means to coerce their opposition. While real life has seen these same types of behaviors - from throwing rocks with notes through windows to burning crosses to lynchings on the town square, there used to be some sort of geographical limitation to how widespread a message got, and a certain level of means to overcome that anomymity by interested enough parties.

As I previously mentioned, one of the things that makes “cancel culture” problematic is that a situation that causes outrage becomes spread to a much larger audience that has no natural connection but feels compelled to express that outrage anyway.

Trolling and threats of violence are not problems explicitly and solely of “cancel culture”, but those internet behaviors are getting identified as part of the same problem.

The “cancel” aspect of cancel culture has its own distinct categories and problems.

Collective activity allows for relatively powerless individuals to gain group strength against more powerful agencies, whether it’s a richer person, a larger corporation, or a government entity. It’s a similar kind of collective power as the concept of labor unions.

But the same collective power can become a tyranny of the majority or the unchecked excess of the mob. Either of those are legitimate fears that may not have manifested yet but are likely to develop in time.

So the questions to address are how do we harness the benefits of the shift of collective power while providing checks to ensure due process and prevent the same cultural oppression seen from other means of power.

There’s also variation in who the affected parties are and who hold the means of “cancelation”. For what does cancellation even mean?

If someone posts bad comments on social media and then get a lot of return comments on that came sm, that seems to be free expression playing out.

When someone says something hateful or bigoted and others call for the sm platform to censor those ideas, we start treading onto dangerous territory.

One of the famous examples in civil liberties is when the ACLU defended the KKK marching in Skokie, Illinoisnot because the ACLU agrees with bigots, but because the state preventing the KKK from marching is exactly the idea of free expression that the First Amendment is meant to protect. Because if they come for the KKK today, they can come for BLM tomorrow.

The troubling aspect of social media is not just that there is no oversight, no protections from damaging lies and hateful ideas. It’s that the algorithms actual work to foster and spread those messages through information siloing. What seemed like a good idea to help customers find more of what they like has in practice formed a means to isolate people from fact checking or alternative views and has increased the spread of disinformation.

Beyond social media, there is the impact when people take criticisms about someone’s ideas or actions and turn that into a campaign against them through their employer. This can be troubling when someone is being fired for activities away from work that have nothing to do with their work.

It at least has some validity when that person is used as a spokesperson for that company.

But then there is even how the company is likely to respond to a large campaign. I’ve see it argued here both directions, that the company will be too litigation averse and drop the person immediately without investigation and that the company with be too financially invested in the person so will cover up the results.

I suspect that can be situational.

Finally, I want to address to concept of metoo. While me too had been most visible with the addressing of rape and sexual assault, the movement itself was supposed to be wider, looking at all the casual sexist behavior and sexual intimidation occurring in society. And to the degree that those attitudes have become questioned or is a good thing. Me Too isn’t strictly cancel culture, though certainly accusations of sexual misbehavior can be specific incidents that apply.

Slight nitpick: IIRC, it was Neo-Nazis rather than the KKK.

(You know, per the Blues Brothers.)

I don’t agree. Shame is what you feel or should feel when you do something wrong. That’s why people say “shame on you,” trying to get you to feel your wrongdoing.

Humiliation is what you feel when someone says or does something to make you look or feel bad. Humiliation is done to you.

“You humiliated me. Shame on you!”

Humiliate me twice, I won’t get humiliated again.

One can shame oneself, or, as you have done here, one can project shame onto others.

The reason why projecting shame onto others is more powerful than projecting humiliation onto others is because humiliation will usually cause a reaction whereas shame typically results in silence.

An interesting example of cancel culture:

This guy posts a simple photo on Xitter. Now everyone is trying to cancel him: talking gleefully about committing violence against him because of his speech, trying to make sure he never gets his dream job, even trying to get him kicked out of his professional networking group. Based on the mob’s attacks on him, he’s taken down the Xeet.

Now, I left out some details, but the details are all about the content of his speech. Does that even matter? Or do the anti-cancel-culture folks think that it’s censorship to keep someone from gaining power, based on their speech?

Here’s what I said above:

So, by that metric:

Cancelling the racist fuckwad who suggested that concentration camps are the solution to our unemployment rate is absolutely censorship, whether it is accomplished through government intervention (for example, a tweet like that in Germany would likely get you in legal trouble) or through social rejection (if Californians overwhelmingly decide this guy is disgusting and go around letting everyone know about his disgusting beliefs whenever he tries to speak in public).

This is also a situation where censoring someone through social means is totally appropriate. It wouldn’t be appropriate to censor him through legal means in the United States only because we don’t have those kinds of laws, so any punishment like that would by necessity be extrajudicial; but I wouldn’t be opposed to laws being put in place that do restrict speech along these lines, and then to those laws being used against people like this in the future.

I definitely think that what we should not do is say “Censorship? What censorship? No censorship here!” as we cancel this guy. He absolutely should be censored through overwhelming public condemnation. And it’s fine to call that process what it is.

What’s the gotcha here supposed to be?

I’ll confess I’m puzzled as to why you chose my post out of that section of the thread to exemplify cancellation…

Because I’m sloppy. Sorry–I meant to link to the OP.

Oh, thanks. I was worried I said something egregious by mistake.

I think this is in part because it’s often done so badly, and also because authors from marginalized groups tend to have less opportunity to publish than more privileged people, so it’s seen as appropriating someone’s culture or experience for profit.

I can see arguments on both sides, but generally I think really good work should be treated as really good work. There are some characters that are so well done the author gets a pass. Abed from Community comes to mind. He is an exceptionally well-written autistic character, performed by a non-autistic actor.

You just don’t want to be that person who thinks you’re going to get a pass and turns out to be wrong.

For a while there, #ownvoices was a super big deal in publishing. I think that expectation peaked, though. I don’t see as much fervor about it.

It’s about 95% done. I’m waiting on that other 5%. I have to finish the resolution scene, rewrite the beginning, and then do a bunch of minor continuity stuff (creating a consistent timeline, etc) becuase it’s been through so many rewrites there are a lot of little inconsistencies.

Some hilarious canceling from this week:

To sum up, Alan Dershowitz, Epstein massage buddy, Trump apologist, and just general all-around piece of shit, lives in Martha’s Vineyard and likes pierogies, but a local pierogie seller refused to sell to him because of his shittiness. He threatened to sue, and then tried again with the pierogie seller, and was shouted out of the farmer’s market by the righteous crowd.

Canceling or not, IMO this is just consequences for being shitty. If you’re publicly shitty, people might start to dislike you and not want to associate or do business with you. It’s always been this way and always will be. It’s one of the few ways the masses have to demonstrate consequences to the rich and powerful for whom they deplore. Sure, sometimes they can be wrong, but when they’re not, like in this case, it’s great and glorious.

Fuck the Dersh. Go buy frozen pierogies and eat them alone in your basement, you piece of shit.

I relayed this story to my partner, who, if you recall, grew up in the Soviet Union, and is understandably wary of threats to freedom of speech. He said, “Good. He doesn’t deserve pierogies.”

Oh, thank you so much for that.

Great Bluesky thread on the bullshit news/political cycle for supposed “woke cancelers”:

In short, using the silly Sydney Sweeney advertising thing (which no one actually cared about) as an example, grifting commentators will gin up made-up controversy about cancelation. It doesn’t matter if no one actually tries to “cancel” Sweeney for this, they can gin up the bullshit outrage from nothing (or from manufactured social media quotes) and create days of content that gins up outrage and views. And that this is basically anti-“woke” politics in a nutshell.