"Cancel Every Existing Superhero Comic"

Cafe Society
42

I think it might be worth discussing more, because it seems to me you haven’t really grasped our point of view as well. I’m not necessarily looking for solely stand-alone, single-issue stories aimed at children. In fact, as a comic book reader, none of those things are things I’m looking for.

I’m looking for (1) a smaller number, of (2) less frequent, (3) higher-quality works, (4) aimed at adults (I’m not against “all-ages” content, but it’s usually not what interests me), (5) in more “complete” segments (like novels in a trilogy, for example), (6) in which creators are free to use or not use whatever aspects of prior publications fits into their concept of a story or character.

I would like comic books to be more like other kinds of books, rather than as high-volume periodicals. I want the best artists and writers to be able to put out (1) complete stories (2) without filler content required to meet the needs of periodical publication (3) with the freedom to implement their artistic visions without being shackled to decisions made by prior creators.

Maybe this means a combination of longer-form and shorter-form works, maybe it means some works aimed at children and some at adults, maybe it means some sticking to a particular continuity and character history, and some choosing other alternatives.

What I want to get away from is the notion that any particular character or setting has a real history that is generally acknowledged. These are fictional works. There’s nothing real about them, and I hate conversations about which stories or aspects are more real than others.

Discuss and disagree about which ones you prefer, certainly, but not which ones are “canon,” a word that at this point nauseates me. Fuck the idea of canon and fuck whoever conceived of it.

And if you choose, please, fanwank all you want about trying to reconcile one version with another, but I want the creators and publishers to be free from that consideration. They shouldn’t have to worry about reconciliation.

And maybe we can get rid of “event” cycles whose sole existence is based on the notion of canon and reconciliation of inconsistencies among versions. That’s the most boring and useless garbage there is. Just tell an actual story; forget reconciling it with a different story.

43

For example, in the Silmarilion, Tolkien tells the creation story twice, and they aren’t the same, or like the Bible’s Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (heh, “canon”). They’re not “continuity” bound. Or like Philip Roth, who sometimes writes a character into multiple novels, but they’re not necessarily bound to the same background story for that character.

In other cases, a creator might stick to a particular continuity for a long stretch, if that’s what serves the story. In other cases, maybe not.

44

I have absolutely no problem with the vision of comic books you present. In fact, it already exists, to some extent. DC’s Vertigo line, for example, published a lot of works like that, as did its Elseworlds line. Those were always sidelines to the “main” continuity, of course, which dominated the marketplace.

If the kinds of works you envision become a larger element of the marketplace, and the result is increasing readership and new blood coming in, I’d celebrate them.

But, then we get back to “Fuck the idea of canon and fuck whoever conceived of it.”

I, personally, want stories set in a shared universe, with the pretense of continuity. You don’t. I’m fine with us preferring different approaches. I’m more than fine with creators using the approaches you prefer, as well as the approaches I prefer. You don’t seem to be.

And by the way, without the tropes of comic book continuity and retcons and reboots, we don’t get Kurt Busiek’s Astro City #1/2, which is for my money (literally) one of the most beautiful and elegiac comic book stories ever. In fact, we don’t get Kurt Busiek’s Astro City at all, which is kind of ironic. It seems like it’s exactly the kind of series you’re advocating for, but it only exists in direct response and in loving homage to the type of canon that you despise.

45

Sadly, art doesn’t live merely on the strength of a few good examples. And commerce dies under the weight of multitudes of bad ones.

46

@Acsenray, @Exapno_Mapcase,

I had started composing a post in my head, about how we actually agree on a lot of points; about how artistic expression can thrive, even benefit, from formal constraints; about how Tolkien was actually very deliberately embracing and evoking the sort of messy, contradictory, collective, emergent storytelling of myth and folklore which Marvel and DC mostly unintentionally replicated; and about how I actually appreciate and enjoy the kind of comic book stories you’re advocating for, while also enjoying and appreciating comic book stories with deep continuity. But…

Fuck it.

Maybe I’m badly misreading both of you, but my takeaway from everything you’ve written is:

  1. The comic book stories you like may save the comic book industry, while the comic book stories I like are on the verge of destroying it. I’ve said, over and over and over again that you may well be factually correct, but if that means the kinds of deep continuity stories I like are going extinct, I’ll be sad. This apparently is not satisfactory, because,

  2. The comic book stories you like are Art, while the comic book stories I like are “no longer art but in-group masturbation”, a “nonsensical hampering of the artists’ craft”, and “the most boring and useless garbage there is.”

So, yeah, I don’t think there’s any point in continuing this discussion.

47

I think our only true area of disagreement is that you think that multi-decade universes are still art and we don’t. We’re not going to change each others’ minds, and there may be no point to continuing, but I don’t believe the discussion wasn’t valuable.

48

I love superhero comics. But I’ve learned to be flexible about ‘continuity’…

See, I came of age reading “The Historical Documents”: early Supes ‘n’ Bats, the debut of Marvel, and had all the 60s Spider-Man issues.

I loved that each hero had a simple origin story, with clear motivations (even as a gradeschooler, I knew Batman was unhinged by his parents’ death, Superman was a cosmic Boy Scout, and Spidey was a neurotic teenager haunted by Uncle Ben’s death).

My comic reading fell off after college when things got too complex. I mean, “the” Hawkman from the 60s was simple: alien cop, disguised as a museum docent. But suddenly, there were three or four concurrent and contradictory Hawkman backstories.

But now, I’m reading more comics than ever, and not worrying about continuity.
Thanks to [drumroll] The Fitty Cent Bins.

See, I’m a cheapskate, and can’t bring myself to buy current ‘books at cover price (let alone Silver Age comics at collectors’ valuings). So I rummage through the El Cheapo Bins at Graham Cracker Comics, looking for well-written and gorgeous work.

Now, what that means is that I find myself reading an Ultimate Spidey-Dude; then two consecutive issues of Dr. Strange, Surgeon Supreme; followed by three different women named Ms. Marvel and a stack of Superman comics that are barely in the same universe.

And I’m thoroughly enjoying them all, BUT I do have to roll with the punches: "Oh, looks like Gwen’s alive in this continuity… with powers yet? And all the heroes have a minority teen version… Oh, Supes and Lois have kids? Luthor’s president? Jimmy’s not calling Perry ‘Chief’? Well, huh, I can learn to appreciate this…

And I’m loving it. In fact, I just retired, and I tell people I did it “to spend quality time with my comic books”.

49

Isn’t asking “How do we get kids to get their superhero stories from comic books?” kind of like asking “How do we get people in their 20s to get their news from Time and Newsweek magazine?”

50

Pretty much, yes.

On the other hand, if you’re a long-time, die-hard fan of that format, or your job comes from that format, it seems like a question you’ve got to at least ask, even if the most obvious answer is, “You don’t.”

51

I read many comics in digital media now. The question isn’t necessarily how to get people to buy physical objects. The art form is independent of that.

It’s like asking now that people don’t own film projectors and their own movie screens how do you expect them to keep watching movies?

52

I presume an (increasingly shrinking) number of people go to time.com and newsweek.com as well.

And I agree that a digital superhero story told using still images and text is different from a digital superhero story told using animation or live actors.

53

Right and even if those two websites aren’t particularly popular, someone is reading that type of article somewhere.

54

It’s not truly unique. The other medium you’d see similar long convoluted internally contradictory stories in were daytime soaps. In that way, the two remind me very much of each other.

Long running novel series do the same thing - and kids eat those up.

This is definitely a barrier to entry. I think it takes 15 minutes (give or take) to read a comic book? At most? And it’s 4. That's a very expensive /hr rate for entertainment. A comic book movie is 4 times as much, but lasts 12 times as long. And hell, a month of Disney+ is twice as much for 750 hours of entertainment.

55

You want to save comic books? Turn off electricity. If kids didn’t have computers and video games and television and streaming services and mobile phones, they’d go back to reading comic books. And playing sandlot baseball and collecting stamps.

Which isn’t going to happen obviously. People like Conway need to stop imaging today’s kids want to recreate their grandparents’ childhoods. If it makes you feel any better, just think about how in fifty years they’ll turn into old men who will be complaining about kids never spend any time on their mobile phones like the way kids used to.

56

In fifty years, Gerry Conway will be 118 years old.

57

That’s why he should be thinking about it now. He probably won’t be around to see it.

58

I hang out at my local comic shop (yeah, I’m one of THOSE guys…) and I’m amazed at how often a group of kids’ll come in. And they know their comics, and are picky about which continuities and writers they want.

I know a few of them are there because of a movie that got them hooked. (I’ve heard a couple kids asking about “Spider-Man, but not Peter Parker; we need the new Miles Morales stuff.”)

Oh, and a lot of them are also buying digital versions. Not sure they make a value distinction between monthly comics (“the floppies”), graphic novels, digital, animation/online videos, TV series and movies.
If they like a character, they want to watch/read about them in any format.
…
On the other hand, MY kids have no interest in my dozens of short boxes of great silver, bronze, copper and tin age comics. “Those are for dads, dad.”

59

I think the print industry in general needs to get cheaper. Many times I’ll be waiting in line at a super market, see a TIME LIFE compilation about a movie or event I’m interested in, only to balk at the $12.99 purchase price.

60

Bringing this thread back from the dead, like a comic book character:

@Exapno_Mapcase and @Acsenray (and @everyone else interested):

If you have not read it already, I highly recommend the three volume limited series from last year, Superman Smashes the Clan. It references and in parts is in conversation with the broader Superman canon, and with the classic radio serial, but it exists entirely within its own self-contained continuity. It’s an “all-ages” book, but I think it manages to actually be truly “all-ages” - it seems like it would be accessible to and appropriate for kids, while still being deeply engaging, even touching, for a middle-aged adult like me. It seemed like exactly the sort of book both of you were advocating for.

One bit in the third issue that I took particular delight in:

The Klan’s supreme leader is upset with his lieutenant for bringing down the wrath of the police and Superman because it’s costing them money - they’re going to miss out on member dues and their cut of the payments for hoods, robes, and Klan-related tat. It’s simultaneously genuinely villainous, cynically funny, and, from what I understand, 100% historically accurate.

61

The problem with Superhero Comics is the modern technology that makes it come alive in Ultra-High Definition on your 65 inch UHD TV. Who wants to read a comic book these days compared to watching one of the many DC and Marvel Superhero movies that exist these days? I certainly don’t.