Car headlight dimmers and logic- strangers?

I’ve been driving (legally) for about 25 years now. For the first 16 of those years, I was a die-hard Honda/Acura fan and had no less than 11 of their vehicles. Especially in the 80s, Honda seemed to do everything in the most logical yet ingenious way and most others followed their lead.

On all of my Hondas, the bright beams were turned on/off by pulling the stalk on the left side of the steering column toward the steering wheel. Click on, click off- simple as dirt.

Now most cars, Hondas included, require you to push the stalk on the left of the column back, away from the steering wheel, to activate the high beams. Pulling it back toward the steering wheel turns them off. On many cars I’ve driven with this setup, it is very easy to activate the turn signal in the process or even turn off the headlights if you catch knob on the end of said stalk just the right way! You also have to remove your hand from the steering wheel completely to do this.

Why the heck did they change this? The current setup is totally counter-intuitive and needlessly complicates a very simple task.

Fortunately, I have found an escape from this incredibly annoying situation. I recently leased a 2015.5 Volvo S60 with “Active High Beam” control that will change the trajectory of the beam of light to avoid ‘bright lighting’ oncoming drivers but still lighting to road ahead as brightly as possible. I’m not sure if it actually works, but I haven’t been pulled over or shot yet, so I’m thinking it might. =)

I wasn’t really interested in this feature but I had to take it (and quite a few others) to get the things I wanted that were all lumped together in the Platinum package. Among the other features are a cameras that rear the lines on the road and if I start to deviate from normal driving pattern, indicating that I might be losing attention or getting tired, a little coffee cup appears telliing me to take a break…how fucking cute, right? And the same cameras read lane markers on the highway and if I start to deviate from my lane of travel without signaling, the car will automatically steer itself to remain in the lane. It also dings and vibrates the wheel just to be sure to piss you off!

One of the most interesting ones, and I can’t really fault the logic behind it, is the Collision Detection with Full-Auto-Braking capability. If it thinks you’re going to hit something or someone, it will warn you if there is enough time for you to react or it will just apply full braking force if it doesn’t think you have time to react. The goal is to avoid the collision or at least minimize the damage by decreasinig the speed of impact. It only works up to 31mph, so it’s not a huge deal.

The only issue I’ve had was during my test drive. I didn’t tell the salesman that I was going to try it out for myself and it sort of scared the living piss out of him. But it worked! =)

I think the issue with the click on/click off high beam controls is that you can’t easily do the flash-to-pass thing with them. That wasn’t an issue back when companies like Honda were North American-centric because FTP is generally considered rude here, but as the car industry has gotten more globally harmonized, the Euro-style controls that let you show that dummkopf in the left lane exactly how you feel have become the norm.

Some cars at least used to have the best of both worlds in that you got click on/click off if you moved the stalk one direction and a momentary flash the other way, but I don’t know if any current cars are like that anymore.

Even on my Hondas, you could pull the stalk toward you without making it ‘click’ and it would flash the lights for FTP.

I suppose anything is better than the old-school big metal button on the floorboard that used to be on domestic cars! My grandma had a 1977 Buick Electra 225 with one of those and it was hard as hell to press and made a horrible metal-on-metal sound when it finally went down. And that was when it was new…some of GM’s wonderful engineering back in the day! I’m sure that every single division had their own unique ddimmer button, designed by their own engineers and only used in their cars! At one point, every division had a 5.0L V8 and there wasn’t a common part amongst them!

That is one possibility, the other reason that was a definite, is that there were a LOT of switch failures with the mechanical latch/unlatch switch assemblies. Their reliability was extremely poor.

Please clarify, if you don’t mind. Are you saying there were failures with the mechanism in the older setup where you clicked forward for on and off? I know there weren’t in any Honda or Acura vehicles in my family (and there have been 100+ counting cousins, aunts and uncles). I have a '95 Legend GS with 328k miles on it in my garage and the switch (as well as every other control in the car) still works with perfect precision just as it did when new!

But I recall my mom’s '86 Oldsmobile that didn’t exactly click as much as “ker-chunked”.

They have had this in EU and Japan for some time. I like it, it allows you to tilt the lights up or down and you can use normal lights, tilted up, providing more coverage but not blinding on-coming traffic with your brights.

I agree in a loose way that the variations in basic secondary car system controls can be irritating. Some are worse than others. I happen to like Honda’s current system, as implemented in my '07 Odyssey; flip the stick forward for brights, back for dims and tug it for a flash is a perfectly sensible arrangement.

The pull-to-switch version in my Volvo is sensible, too, except that the interaction of it and the automatic headlights and the headlight mode switch is a little peculiar. You basically can’t drive without the headlights on, regardless of the switch setting… but if the headlights are “off,” tugging the light stalk only flips the lights to bright as long as the stalk is held. They won’t toggle between modes unless the headlights are “on.” (It also has HID headlights, some of the earliest available - it’s a 2005 - and changes from high to low not by switching filaments or bulbs but by moving the rear reflector from one position to another.)

I also have a classic car with a floor button, which has rusted or gummed up every four or five years since 1968 and needed replacement, which is always preceded by a period of having to stomp on the button extremely hard to flip the lights.

And then there’s my other classic car, which uses a delicate button on the back of the turn-signal lever to switch… through a toggling relay of Choiman manufacture that is an absolute piece of mechanical wizardry - a tiny Swiss watch in a can - that fails once a year whether it’s used or not. (I finally built a solid-state replacement for it that’s lasted four years so far.)

Anyway, I suppose it would be nice to have one single headlight control among all cars, but it’s like all other such engineering choices not driven entirely by regulation and law: it’s up to the whim of some designer as filtered through the design department and accounting. And thus a quirky personal opinion become solidified into millions of concrete (okay, plastic) examples.

I found this hilarious, by the way. Anyone who spends their first sixteen years swapping cars every year is driving anything but “die-hards.” :slight_smile:

We always get the cool stuff last…

They’re also Active Headlights meaning that the beams turn in relation to steering wheel angle so the light can shine into turns/curves. The effect is noticeable and actually very useful. My previous car (Mazda) also had the active headlights but for some reason only the low beams were Xenons and they had to be manually leveled to compensate for any load in the cargo area (kinda cheap, huh?).

All of these features are interesting, but the most impressive part of all these systems are the Xenon headlights themselves. I’ve had Xenons in every car I’ve owned since 2003 and the difference compared to halogens is amazing! I’m a little disappointed that Volvo doesn’t include them standard on all their cars as an essential safety feature.

Not to brag (well, maybe a little) but the coolest feature of all on my 2015.5 Volvo S60 is that it is the only car currently sold in the U.S. that has both a Supercharger and Turbocharger! A 2.0L Inline-4 that puts out 302hp is pretty damn impressive and a lot of fun! =)

A lot of them were owned simultaneously, I kept at least half of them for at least three years.

And it was very easy from a financial standpoint because anything with a Honda or Acura logo was all but immune from depreciation back then. I leased a $23k Accord for $168/month with $1k down in 1998, just as an example. There were at least three that I drove for more than one year and sold for more than I paid for them. People (myself included) thought that Honda was the ‘gold standard’…quite literally.

I agree with this. The internal design of the spring-loaded push-on push-off switches is inherently less robust than the current two-way push-on pull-off ones. They had a bent, spring-like piece of metal & catch mechanism to allow for the alternating on/off function while pushing in the same direction. These wore out faster than the newer forward/backward two-relay design. My guess also is that car manufacturers used the spring-loaded ones first because they were less expensive. Every one I ever used had a decidedly cheap feel to it, especially compared to the newer push/pull switches.

Wouldn’t argue. Hondas are pretty much first on my car buying list - but I do move on for some reasons. Usually price/value or because they don’t have a model that fits my precise needs. But they’re great cars and always have been.

The easiest dimmer switch I ever used was on a '66 VW bug. It was a button mounted in the end of the turn signal stalk on the back side. Tap it for brights, tap it to dim. No stalk movement was involved, as the button was simply a momentary N/O switch wired to a relay behind the dash.

That’s exactly the same stalk and switch I have in my one vintage car. It’s common in many older German cars and a few British ones made from “available parts.” They all use the same ridiculously complicated, ridiculously fragile, ridiculously expensive relay.

(For those who know what I’m talking about, the toggle latching between high and low states is done with a watch-like set of gears and pawls atop the actual relay. It’s beautiful. It’s absurdly complicated. It’s as fragile as a cheap windup watch. What it’s doing in a Bug is beyond me…)

In 2004, Honda recalled 1.1 million vehicles to update certain gear components on cars with under 15k miles and inspect and evaluate cars with over 15k miles and take appropriate corrective action up to possibly replacing the transmission.

The recall covered the 2002-2004 Odyssey, 2003-2004 Pilot, 2001-2002 Acura MDX, 2003-2004 Accord V6, 2000-2004 Acura 3.2 TL and 2001-2003 Acura 3.2 CL.

A large class action settlement followed in 2006 and included a warranty extension for the replacement transmissions. Within one-year of the extended warranty expiring, tens of thousands of covered vehicles suffered failure of their replacement transmissions and Honda did nothing to help in any way. A lot of those owners paid $3-$4k out of pocket for yet another transmission!

A large number of recalled vehicles, conservatively estimated at well over 30,000 by a Honda insider, experienced multiple failures during the car’s original warranty period! One of those would be my 2001 Acura 3.2 TL! The original transmission failed at 11k miles and was replaced under warranty after waiting two weeks for parts. They provided a loaner after I demanded rather forcefully that they do so- a rental Dodge Neon that smelled like a dead goat!

At 18k miles, just 7k miles later, the tranny failed yet again! This time they had to wait for someone to fly out from Torrance, CA and they even alluded to the possibility that it might not be covered under warranty a second time. They implied that I might be abusing the car since it had two transmission failures within such a short time. The engineer flew out from CA and looked at my car and, unknown to dealership management or the engineer, I showed up 15 minutes after he arrived. The receptionist was a drinking buddy at a local karaoke bar that I had known for years and she was my inside, double-agent who called when the guy showed up! I confronted the GM, Svc Mgr and Corp Engineer and didn’t really give them an option other than to warranty the repair! Sometimes you have to commit to what is right no matter the consequences and I did just that- my receptionist friend said that I was “freaky scary” and I probably walked a fine line between getting what I wanted and getting arrested that day!

After five weeks and 1200 miles, the goddamn transmission failed yet again! I was on my way to the office at 6:30am and I had it towed to the dealer before the service dept even opened. When the Service Manager arrived, I was sitting behind his desk in his chair and told him I wasn’t leaving until he did whatever it took to terminate my lease immediately even though it had 10 months left on the 36-month term. Again, I had to act a little scary/crazy and two hours later, I left with a stack of papers legally terminating my lease with no penalty of any kind and guarantee that it would be reported to the credit bureaus as if I had fulfilled all lease obligations as agreed. They also cut me a check on the spot for my security deposit and there were no pleasantries or handshakes as I flung the door open and walked out the damn place!

A good friend of mine has worked for North American Honda for 28 years. He transferred to the Torrance, CA N.A. Headquarters for five years in the late 2000s before moving to their Ohio site in 2011. According to him, off the record and under the influence of alcohol, the claimed number of ‘around’ 600,000 failures that Honda admitted in an internal document was total bullshit. They were actually claiming at least 600,000 vehicles were affected and many of those had multiple failures like mine for a total of at least 900,000 failed transmissions. But that was only the ones covered under warranty and recorded as such in their corporate financials! My friend swears that an executive once admitted to him that the true number was probably north of 2-million transmission failures and less than half were covered by warranty! Honda owners were left to pay for the majority of them, often as much as $4k.

I was so thankful that I leased that TL because I knew my nightmare would end in 36-months in the worst case scenario! I didn’t own the car and they had to take it back after the lease expired. If I had owned the car, I don’t think I could have sold it to another person knowing that the transmission would fail again anytime and still be able to sleep at night! Insurance fraud would probably have been my only other resort, which would not have been a great idea since I work in the insurance industry!

I lost all respect for Honda after that nightmare and, after learning the real truth and the extent of the problem (and the way they treated their customers), I developed an intense hatred for the company! I don’t disagree that they make some excellent cars today and they have returned to the level of quality and reliability that was synonymous with the Honda name for decades. But I don’t intend to forgive or forget what happened in the early/mid 2000s and I’ll never buy another Honda or Acura!

BTW, just in case you might be curious, the problem affected their newly designed 5-speed automatic introduced in 2000-2001 on models with V6 engines. 4-cylinder models were totally unaffected. My dad’s 2004 Accord 4-cylinder has 308k miles on the original tranny and no signs of stopping.

I really wish Honda had done the ‘right’ thing and taken care of their customers. They lost tens if not hundreds of thousands of devout customers over the course of a decade because of their deception, ambivalence and hubris. They probably don’t care because they’ve replaced those customers by now.

I suppose I take it very personally because I grew up with a deep respect and admiration for a scrappy young Japanese self-taught mechanic and engineer named Soichiro Honda. He did everything his own way and accomplished some amazing things despite having no formal education. He insisted on doing things the most efficient yet honest way possible. He was a truly superior human being and would be ashamed of how the company bearing his name behaved.

Then again, even after detailing Honda’s sins, they can easily defend themselves by simply pointing in the general direction of Detroit- instantly deflecting all dispersions cast toward them! Just the things I know to be true about GM’s past would raise an eyebrow amongst the Nazi Party and could make Enron appear ethical! =?

[/Hijack]

Yes, Hondas are excellent cars, in quality, comfort & reliability. BUT, they are no better than most other Japanese cars, specifically Toyota and Nissan. And they are decidedly more expensive (both new and even more so used) simply because they successfully created an almost cult-like loyalty amongst their buyers. Plus, if you work on your own cars Honda parts are more expensive, and their engines have a lot of proprietary ‘quirks’ that you need to go to ‘Honda school’ to be proficient at.

Hondas in general have a sportier feel and better handling than comparable Japanese models. Toyota may be as reliable mechanically, but the material quality, assembly and design of their interiors over the last 10 or so years makes them ‘feel’ cheap from the driver’s seat. I rent cars for work travel 40+ times per year and the last time I drove a Corolla or Camry, the interior made me wonder if we suddenly had started importing cars from Russia or perhaps North Korea! The plastics were rock hard and felt/sound hollow when you touched them, the seat fabric reminded me of 70s GM mouse-fur velour and the panel gaps were uneven on most separate parts attached to the dash and console. There were also ‘mold lines’ visible on some dash components and that is unacceptable in a $25k car (it was a Camry).

I am particularly harsh on Toyota for their low-brow interiors because they used to be the exact opposite. The interior of the 1992-1995 Camry, even in the lower trim levels, wouldn’t have looked or felt out of place in a Lexus. Toyota has seen the error of their ways and 2015 Corolla and Camry have much improved interiors but still have a ways to go to be equal to a Civic or Accord.

As for Nissan, if you take a look at the latest results from Consumer Reports on high volume models such as the Altima and Sentra, you will see that they have significantly lower reliability and owner satisfaction ratings than Honda, Toyota or Mazda. The Sentra

The Owner Satisfaction rating is a particularly interesting number. They ask thousands of owners “would you buy this vehicle again” and the rating is a percentage that answered yes. Among mid-size sedans, the ratings range from a low of 54 (Dodge Avenger) to a high of 85 for the Accord Hybrid (and 81 for Mazda6, highest rated non-hybrid). The Median Score in the category is 68. Only 57% of Altima owners said they’d buy it again. Accord owners were at 76% and Camry at 69%.

In the small/compact car category, it ranges from a low of 42 (Nissan Versa) to a high of 79 (Mazda3). The Median Score is 63. Nissan Sentra owners were at a very low 47% (and the smaller Versa owners were even worse, as mentioned above). Civic owners were at 65% and Corolla at 70.

It’s interesting that most KIA models and several Hyundai models ranked higher than Toyota, Nissan or any domestic brand! As a whole, the brand with the highest percentage of customers who would buy the car again is no surprise- Honda at a whopping 79% average. Second runner up was surprising with Mazda at 77% and third place was KIA at an overall average of 72%!

As long as Nissan is commingled with Renault, there’s no way their satisfaction or quality ratings will improve! I hate to generalize and will probably offend some, but French cars (Renault) could not be less durable if they were made from tissue paper and Elmer’s Glue! In the interest of minimizing cost and maximizing ‘synergies’, Renault’s innate mediocrity and pathetic quality have rubbed off on Nissan models…

That might be quite an improvement! :smiley:

Only for the older drivers to appreciate…

I still have trouble getting my left foot up to the steering column to turn on the brights.