Good! When I worked for Allen TestProducts, part of our business training involved teaching shop owners how to identify all of their often overlooked costs, such that they charged what their services were worth and made a decent profit, thence staying in business.
Brake pulsation can have a number of different causes. In no particular order:
Over heating the brakes which causes the rotor to warp.
thick/thin variations in the rotor. (both side of the rotor are not flat and parallel to each other.
A distorted hub mounting surface causing the rotor not to run true.
Over tightening lug nuts on some cars can distort the rotor hat, and give a pulsation.
Rust or other crap on the hub mounting surface causing the rotor to not run true.
Hard/hot spots developing in the metal The metallurgy to change and different parts of the rotor to have different friction characteristics. Looking at the rotor, you can actually see discolored areas (hot spots)
Bad wheel bearings.
Other suspension issues.
I would note that only the first two items can be cured via a brake lathe. All the rest have a different root cause and a brake lathe is of no use.
If the rotor is warping due to overheating of the brakes, the root cause of the problem is usually located between the brake pedal and the seat.
I have never heard that metallic pads caused rotors to warp any faster, or more than semi-metallic pads.
While I don’t claim to have my finger on the pulse beat of everything racing, I am doubtful of a racer using water to cool their brakes for a couple of reasons. First off race track officials get real moody if any liquid is discharged onto the track from a race car. Secondly spraying water onto a rotor could cause it to warp, or even fracture. This would be considered a bad thing. So cite?
Well if he raised his shop rate from $82.00 per hour to say what seems to be Rick’s rate for one hour’s work ($150.00), he’ll lose his business which has been around since at least 93 when I first came to this town. Dealerships around here don’t even charge over a hundred for an hour.
While I can’t argue with your list of potential brake problems it didn’t apply to my situation. when I have a rotor turned and the wheels run true after assembly I have to conclude it’s a warping problem if the brakes are grabby down the road. Burn’t disks will grab and chatter. So my particular problem was warped rotors (which Honda’s were known for at the time). This was a 4 cyl car that didn’t see any kind of performance driving so it was all stop and go useage. I can’t swear it was the semi-metalic pads that solved the problem because I changed to non-factory rotors after that. I’ve since put over 100K on these rotors and they’re fine.
As for the water injection method of brake cooling causing damage you have to think in terms of daily use. You’re car rotors go through this every time it rains. from this site:
** In most serious performance applications you
will not have to worry about your brakes getting hot enough.
You will have to worry about the cooling though. This is not
a big consideration in cross-drilling because the same thing
can be acccomplished with bigger vented rotors or additional
air ducting. The IROC Daytonas have special ducting and a
water injection system that sprays water on the brakes to
cool them.**
Our shop rate is 98.86/ hour, the labor for pads and rotors is 1.5 hours, or $150 in round numbers.
Shop rates vary by area, the type of repair, and what kind of car.
I know of a couple of Volvo dealers that are at $150/ hour. However out if BFE the dealer rate might be $85/ hour. Being in LA we have a higher rate than shops in other parts of the country.
Rent is more expensive in LA that other places.
If a hot spot is on the front wheels, it will cause a steering vibration. Been there, fixed that. The reason I listed all the possible causes, is that in a thread like this there is always someone that says Turn the rotors, it will fix the problem. Well not always.
Interesting about the Daytona IROC. I did not know that. Also odd is the fact that going though the first five pages of results for IROC Daytona brings up no mention of this anywhere else. ::: Shrug:::
I have to second Rick’s call for a cite on water-cooled brakes. I’ve been watching racing for almost 20 years and involved in amateur motorsports for almost ten, and I’ve never heard a word about using water on brakes (until now). As Rick says, brakes and water are anathema on many levels. I only do non-competitive track driving, but even at that relatively low level, the rotors can easily heat up to over 1,000 degrees C. Water would almost certainly destroy hot rotors.
IME, brake cooling on race and track cars is done mostly with air ducts that scoop air in from the nose of the car and channel it onto the rotors.
Also, I use slotted rotors, but everything I’ve heard about cross-drilled rotors suggests that the holes only accelerate cracking. No serious track person I know uses them. They seem to be mainly for posers who are more concerned about appearance than performance.
I hadn’t seen Magiver’s subsequent post when I posted my reply, but I note that when I Google “IROC Daytonas” & brakes & “water injection” I get only that page. I suspect the poster there was confused or just mistaken.
To be honest I was thinking in terms of drag racing so I was happy to find the reference. This was something that budget drag racers did when I was younger. Don’t know if it’s popular now given advances in brakes but in the muscle car era it was a poor-man’s solution to stopping a car going 130+ mph. For $5 in junkyard parts you could rig something up pretty easy.
Could be your anti lock brake system or may be just low on brake fluid. Have a trusted professional look at it. Maybe some one you know, would know a good mechanic.
My 02 sunfire had a circuit board that controlled the AC blower , so it gave you four speeds and it was made in Mexico. The part only cost me about 40 dollars and took about 2 hours *to replace myself.
The forum that had the walk through mentioned that the OEM part was made in Mexico and has a history of this happening , while the aftermarket product thats manufactured in the US, happened to be made better for what ever reason.
*that one friggen bolt near the firewall, turned a fifteen minute job into an afternoon.
Declan
Early ABS activation could cause a brake pedal pulsation. Low brake fluid would not cause a pulsation.
RE: Factory versus aftermarket parts.
The best thing to do is research. Look 'em all up. Talk to as many people with experience on those parts as possible. Sometimes the Cheap Chinese parts are just as good as any, sometimes it’s best to go with Factory or OEM parts and sometimes it’s a good idea to go all out with the pricey High Performance stuff. Parts, tools, whatever - the best thing you can do is plenty of homework.
RE: Cost of mechanical work
Any mechanical work I have ever done (auto or home) I have always matched the labor to the parts just to make things easy. Sometimes this nets a little more than an average mechanic, sometimes a little less. Sometimes it comes out to a lot more per hour than the average mechanic but the total job comes out to less overall.
This said, brake jobs and front rotor work is hella easy and made for some easy quick cash when I was in school. Jack 'em up, pop 'em off, get 'em turned down or just get new ones, slap 'em on and put it all back again. Only about 3 or 4 tools total to do the whole job (including the hammer). Sometimes I miss the old days when a car was simple enough to understand, other times I love this crazy modern world where there are disc brakes instead of drums on the back axle.
I just called the local AutoZone for the actual numbers it would cost for a DIY solution.
Assuming you’re competent and comfortable doing your own brake work. Competent meaning able to put things back like you found them. Grand Ams are fairly simple.
Rotor. 24.99 or 34.99 for one or two year warranty.
Pads, lifetime warranty. 22.99 for metallic, 37.99 ceramic
If you get in and find the caliper pistons scored or otherwise damaged, a caliper is 35.
You’ll need bearing grease and also brake fluid if you replace the caliper.
As inexpensive as the rotors are, resurfacing really shouldn’t even be considered. The only specialty tool you might want is a caliper compression clamp to press the pistons back in. Not necessary, I’ve done it many times with just a C clamp and a wrench to span the piston, but it does make it easier.
But like nd_n8 and others have stated, not particularly troublesome for the mechanically inclined or budget challenged individual. Just dirty. Very dirty.
I’m not clear if you folks got a cite you accepted for water-cooled brakes, so I thought I’d throw this one in. From Castrol Motor Oil:
If you go to the linked page, there’s a photo of three trucks side-by-side in a corner. They look insane with steam pouring off their front brakes. I went looking for this, because I’ve seen it on TV a few times and it’s the wildest racing I’ve ever seen (with the possible exception of those Euro rally lunatics - gotta love that). You should look for it in your listings unless you only get over-the-air broadcasts like me (I’ve only seen this stuff with people who have Dish or whatever). I’ve seen big rig racing from Mexico, too - and those trucks look more like the makes you’d see on your local interstate.
OK, I grant that a few people in a few places have used water mist injection for cooling brakes. It even makes sense for those huge racing semis. It just goes to show that somewhere, sometime, someone has tried almost every crazy thing you can think of. Hell, the Mythbusters built airplanes out of concrete.
But it is far from common in the world of auto racing. And if there were really anything to it, you can bet that NASCAR and many other pro and amateur racing series would be all over it.
Probably not NASCAR. NASCAR is to the cutting edge of racing technology as Wrangler is to the cutting edge of fashion.
But your point is validish.
Agreed that NASCAR is stuck in a time warp as far as engine technology is concerned, but if anyone needed water cooled brakes, and could afford (in terms of weight) to add it, it would be 3,000-pound stock cars, not 1,500-pound open-wheel cars like F1 and Indy Cars.
Looking at NAPA auto parts online (who IMHO are more likely to carry quality parts) I see that front rotors there is a choice of two $38.99 and the OE grade with noise damping for $61.99. Looking at my shop management software it shows the dealer price for front rotors as being $126. Which sounds about right. Front brake pads range in price from $20-$60. The cheap one are listed as being organic, which I believe to be code for contains asbestos. If so I would not use those on any car I work on. Your lungs may vary.
In the rear, it shows that the car can have either disc or drum brakes. I would like to note that out of round drums can also give a pedal pulsation.
My labor guide shows 1.6 hours labor for front pads and rotors and 1.5 for rear pads and rotors, drums go for 1.5.