Sorry.
I never sold cars in Australia.
Yes. Yes at all. Your not getting clear title if theres a finance issue on the house.
SUUUUUUURE you never negotiated trade in value or what was owed on the car until the price of the new car was negotiated. No car dealership worth its salt would even allow you to get to that point without discussing what you wanted for the trade, or what was owed on it. Car salesmen do this for a living. And if they cant handle your smart ass, they turn you over to a seasoned sales manager who will get the info out of you if you are serious about buying that car.
I’m not saying a smart car buyer cant use the Internet to get the numbers they need to be prepared to go into a negotiation, but unless your are going up against a completely green or weak salesman whose gonna get fired soon anyway, theres no way your walking into a negotiation involving a trade without revealing what you expect for it and what you owe. I guess you could LIE, and bring up the trade AFTER negotiating a price on a new car, but ;lets be honest, 1/200 of the population is dick enough to do that and now you are re-entering a negotiation dishonorably, which could kill the entire deal.
They all want to sound like “tough guys”. I have yet to meet one male who never out-smarted the car salesman and got the greatest deal on Earth on their vehicle.:rolleyes:
Im saying good luck with not giving out that info. If you feel the car salesman is using that info to fuck you over, get up and walk out.
I should offer this piece of advice. BEFORE going to get a new car, go to one of those “cash for your car” joints, they will test drive your trade in car and give you a real cash number for your car, no trade in. Assume that number is below auction price so they can make a profit. If they try to sell you a used car in a trade in deal, make some shaggy dog story about why you want to get rid of it (my company is giving me a new company car is a good one to use, that way they don’t think your going on welfare).
Sooo, if they tell you your piece of shit is worth $2500, and then the new car dealer offers you $2000, you can call them out on their bullshit, they are lowballing you $500-1500 on your trade in, regardless of what you owe.
BUT you wont even get there if you refuse to tell the dealer what you owe. Remember, someone has to payoff the loan. Most likely, you don’t have the capital to do so if your upside down.
You keep re-establishing the same fact. You keep proving that the information is worth something to the salesman. You’ve never proven that giving the salesman that information is worth something to the customer. If I, as a customer, know something you don’t, and that information has value to you, that information has value to me. Why should I give it away?
what advantage do you think withholding that gives you as a customer?
Beats me. But you’ve all been successful in demonstrating it has value to the salesman, and if it’s worth something to him, it’s worth something to me. You still haven’t explained why I should give it away for nothing.
this is just going in circles.
One side, the pro-tell the salesman side, is going in circles. The don’t-tell crowd has a solid basis in logic and reasoning. Some really good points have been posted. E.g., the recent one about if the info is something in favor of the salesman, then withholding it is in favor of the customer. (Why this concept doesn’t occur to people who get pressured into things like leases is beyond me. “But I can get more car than I can afford!” “Dude, listen to what you just said.”)
I have been asked by salesman all sorts of weird questions unrelated to the specific issue at hand (model, price, etc.). I never answer them. If they won’t proceed, I go elsewhere.
There are two phases to buying a car:
- Negotiating a price.
- Getting financing squared away.
You never, ever, have any reason to discuss outside factors, like amount owed on a car, during phase 1. You would during phase 2 if you’re going with dealer financing, doing a trade-in, etc. But if that’s your phase 2, you aren’t interested in maximizing your savings so the concept of “strategy” has been gutted.
This is the big hole in most threads about car buying. Some people think they’re trying to save the maximum amount of money, but instead are looking for shortcuts which will cost them money. So things get thrown off by completely non-financial issues pretending to be about money.
The thing is, again, this is all done simultaneously. At the end of the day I can be pretty flexible, but the way we put together deals is the process we use. If you want to see figures on our car versus your car, and payments if you’re financing, I can do that without you telling me what your payoff is up front as long as everyone is clear that the payoff may skew the payment numbers wildly to the good or the bad depending on what the equity situation is.
Car sales (most sales, really) is psychological gamesmanship. Each side is out to get the best deal possible for their side; they will vary in their ethics and the lengths they are willing to go (used-car salesman, e.g., as an occupation didn’t earn the reputation they have because of a long history of benevolence), but fundamentally they have their own interests at heart, not the other guy’s.
In a game, the side with better information usually stands a better chance of coming out ahead, because of being able to use that information to manipulate the situation. The salesperson does this for a living; s/he is going to be much better at it than you are. What you owe on the trade-in is a piece of information that by itself may or may not be particularly useful, but giving the other side information that they can use to manipulate you (whether or not they do use it successfully) is almost always a Bad Idea.
The trade-in should be valued based on age, condition, mileage, etc., not on what you can be manipulated into accepting. (And if you go into a dealership sure and certain that you can’t be manipulated at all, you’ve already lost–remember the part about they do this for a living?) What you owe on the trade-in doesn’t affect it’s age, condition, mileage, etc., so it is information you are giving up for no benefit to yourself AT THAT STAGE OF THE PROCESS. Later on, when you’re working out financing and pay-offs, sure, what you owe is relevant and has to be disclosed, but by the time you get to that stage the prices of both vehicles should already be firm.
You’re still conflating (a) the rate at which your employer withholds from money before giving it to you, and (b) the rate at which you actually pay taxes. Ideally, (a) would be exactly equal to (b), but the tax code is so complicated that it’s hard to get that exactly right, hence this confusion. Your tax refund settles the difference between the two every year.
If you keep getting big refunds, then you may be able to claim more allowances (not exemptions) on your W-4. There are also multiple ways for an employer to withhold from supplemental wages, at their discretion, and I’m not sure yours is using the best one for you. If you have an accountant/bookkeeper/similar friend, or some time to read the rules yourself, it might be worth checking in to.
As to the original question, people should tell the car salesman how much they owe on the old car if their financial judgment is so terrible that they need his help in determining what new cars they can afford. Anyone in that position is unlikely to get the best possible deal, but that’s probably the least of their troubles. That situation is probably more common than many posters would think, but less common than the salesmen do.
I suspect it is the same issue when someone works a second job. Let’s say I have a second job paying $1000/mo. I get taxed on it like I’m making only $12,000/yr which is a significantly lower marginal tax rate than the 28% that should be withheld.
In your case, let’s say your paycheck is $600/mo and your commish check is $2400/mo. If they are processed separately, your paycheck will have taxes taken out as if you make $7200/yr and your commish check will be taxed as if you’re making $28,800/yr which is a much larger MTR.
A similar issue arises if you have two jobs, but **FoieGrasIsEvil ** is correct that withholding (but not taxation) rules are different for supplemental wages vs. normal salary. For anyone willing to spend the time, it’s all there in IRS Publication 15.
Owing $100,000 on a $200,000 house is not a finance issue, it just means that at closing $100,000 goes to the bank to clear the mortgage. I sold a $140,000 house owing $90,000 on it and the information about what I owed didn’t come their way until the lawyer was drawing up the papers for how to handle the payout, this isn’t some weird obscure way of handling house sales.
Isn’t it interesting how the car sales people go from talking about how they’re a persecuted minority who get singled out for horrible treatment by the public and who are being horribly slandered in this thread, but then go on to post stuff like this? It’s like 'oh, we’re not sleazy, but if you want to negotiate the price of the car you’re buying before you even discuss a possible trade-in, then I’m going to call you a “dick” and a “smart ass” and claim that you’re negotiating “dishonorably”. And of course, the attempt to dissuade someone from protecting themselves against common manipulation tactics by saying that they’re weak if they have a psychology.
Some people get suckered in by this stuff, but this is all pretty obvious attempts at manipulation. Do you car sales guys realize that you’re making your profession look much, much more sleazy by the way you’re acting in this thread?
You said that it’s “your own fault”. That is laying blame, if you weren’t trying to lay blame you should not have used those words. Period.
It matters when you’re financing. Not when you’re negotiating the price of the trade in. You have yet to explain why it’s in the customer’s interest to give away that piece of information before a price for the trade-in is settled.
So on one hand you keep repeating “it’s worth what it’s worth” and adding a condescending ‘remember’. But on the other hand, you say that the price isn’t fixed but is instead set by negotiation, when you talking about ‘budging’ on price. Why do you keep insisting that the car is just ‘worth what it’s worth’ so there’s no reason to worry about negotiating the price, yet also talk about negotiating the price? It doesn’t sound like the ‘its worth what its worth’ mantra is true, it’s actually worth whatever you can negotiate in the deal.
Your dealership may force that. I won’t shop at a dealership that won’t talk to me about what they’re charging me for the car, what they’re giving me for the trade in, and only later talk about financing. And I think that merging everything into one big confusing mess that you’re familiar with and the buyer isn’t is a great tactic for getting you a better deal - which isn’t good for the buyer. Same thing with all of the ‘monthly payment’ nonsense.
This is a totally apples to cement blocks comparison.
Why you ask? Several reasons.
- You are probably (almost certainly) not trading in your house to the seller of the house you are buying.
- Most car buyer do trade in their old car
And even more importantly - Have you EVER looked at a real estate listing? The sale price as well as the details of the existing loan(s) are prominently displayed for all to see
Where do you live that this is true?
In my area, it is absolutely NOT the case–the local realtors’ multi-list system, e.g., does not tell the public anything at all about existing mortgages and loans, and when I purchased my current home, I didn’t find out until the day of closing whether the previous owners held it free and clear or had four mortgages against it. (In fact, I never did find out any details–the closing statement just noted that $X was paid out to Local Bank. Mortgage? home equity loan? combination of both? something else altogether? No idea, and it’s none of my business. The previous owners delivered me a general warranty deed and the title insurance company delivered me a binder, so that’s all that mattered.)
As far as your second point (“2. Most car buyer do trade in their old car”), so what? Why is that significant? Most home buyers are trading another house (cite), and it’s not even terribly unusual for a purchase offer to be conditioned upon sale of a previous home. A seller accepting an offer, even such a contingent offer, still doesn’t need to know about the buyer’s other mortgage. They only need/want to know whether this buyer is likely to be able to complete the contract (e.g., pre-approved for new mortgage).
I’ve looked at a lot of real estate listings and have never seen loan information attached, can you give a link to one?