Caring about stem cells & not veal calves is a sign of moral depravity

Yep.

I’m not in this thread trying to make the case that you should care about the lives of veal calves or any other animal that experiences an excrutiatingly horrid life for the service of passing and not-at-all-necessary pleasure.

However, I am making the case about priorities.

Stem cells (or, for that matter, even very early stage fetuses) feel nothing, care for nothing, have no hopes or dreams to be shattered, have no prior expectations they hope to see carried out. They might some day grow into one or more functioning human beings, but they have not yet. In fact, they are litterally and essentially the plans and SOME of the construction equipment for building a functioning human being, but the process has simply not been carried out to a stage where anything yet works in any functional way relevant to the particular life of a human person or any feeling animal. Most of the materials have yet to be shipped in. None of the major systems are set to functioning in any way relevant to making the being think or feel (stem cells, indeed, have no nervous system at all, nor even any differentiated tissues. Even gastrulation has yet to occur!)

I think it’s unarguable that it is the particular sorts of functioning (giving rise to thoughts, feelings, expectations for the future, etc. all the capacities that are directly related to rights) that certain beings have that are the bare minimums for having moral concern for what happens to them. That is why we don’t charge a second murder for cremating a loved one’s corpse: we recognize that once a body has ceased to function in a certain way, it no longer has what it is that we empathize with and worry about harming. So too when that functioning has yet to come into being, as it certainly has in the case of stem cells. Harming them harms nothing that can possibly have any concern whatsoever for the treatment to which they are put.

PETA is often maligned on these boards (albiet as much for their goofball tactics as for their values), but at least as I understand it, PETA is at least less insane than those that think stem cells need protection and rights. Their priorities are at least one step less completely backwards up and morally empty. Shrimp and bugs have more valuable and vivid internal lives than stem cells or even young fetuses (perhaps even older ones, but to make the case as clear as possible, I’m limiting it to outside the gray areas).

And at least PETA seems to have some sense that moral values are not simply totally empty rules and carefully managed defintions with no meta-ethic behind them. Lives are valuable for some REASON, not simply because hey, we value human life (but we have no idea why!) stem cells are genetically human, so we must protect them from “harm.” (which is even more odd, considering that stem cells are not necessarily themselves harmed by stem cell research: they may in fact go on to live and divide and live even longer than whatever other individuals they may have developed into if implanted into a womb directly).

I do continue think that PETA are nutcases who end up harming their own cause. But what does that make people who think that stem cells are tiny people that need police and state protection? At least PETA people have some at least partially working moral center, some hint of an idea that morality and ethics are supposed to be ABOUT something rather than a set of inane and meaningless categories. They actually care about REAL harm done to REAL beings that can actually feel and care about it.

If priorities are everything - why isn’t PETA out sounding the alarm about global warming, or starvation in Africa, or peace in the Middle East? Sounds morally depraved to me to talking about veal calves when all these other things are going on that are arguably more vital to our moral compass.
I do not believe in making this a case of dueling priorities, however. The people who find embryonic stem cell research repugnant have every right, no matter that I disagree with them, to make this a central focus. They do not have to beat the drums on unrelated issues that others might find more important.

So what you are saying that you cannot be concerned about both?

This sort of argument deserves no traction whatsoever. I think that PETA has some legitimate concerns but it seems that they are made into this sort of wacko organization by the media. People love to take things out of context without delving deeper into the real issues. It’s quite surprising to find out that maybe the there are reasons behind certain actions that may make perfect sense to perfectly rational human beings with a different view of the world.

Saying that your organization is morally corrupt because it focuses on one problem assumes much. First off, that everyone in the organization does not care about the other problems and that this fact would make the concerns of the organization moot. It also assumes that there is a hierarchy of causes that is implicit outside of your personal belief system. This is more illogical than anything the media could put into PETA’s mouth.

I’m normally the first to jump on the “the MEDIA IS THE SUXORZZ!!11!!” bandwagon, but the media has nothing to do with PETA being portrayed as bunch of whackjobs. PETA is portrayed as a bunch of whackjobs because PETA is a bunch of whackjobs.

Cite: www.fishinghurts.org

Cite: http://www.animalrights.net/quotes.html (just search for PETA and read those quotes)

Cite: www.peta.org

Oh, and for the record, I think we should do research on stem cells and eat veal calves.

I don’t eat veal, I don’t like the way veal is raised. My choice. If you like veal eat it.
I am pro-stem cell research. I don’t know anyone with spinal cord injuries, just seems like a very worthwhile research.

PETA is a self destructive organization. Remeber their Got Beer ads?
http://www.peta.org/news/300/300nawbeer.html this is from their site not media.
I’m against animal cruelty, I do find PETA crazy.
I won’t wear fur, but if someone wants to wear farm raise Mink or rabbit, why not.
I eat Cows, Pigs & Chicken. Pet dogs end up eating the Mink Meat.

Seems like Apos phoned this one in.

I think Jackmannii agrees with you: see his second paragraph.

Beats the alternative.

Eating stem cells and researching veal calves, or eating veal cells and researching stem calves?

Stem cells is PEOPLE!!!

I fully support stem cell research and cloning. I also support ethical considerations for these researches - if we’re going to do it anyway (and we are; no doubt in my mind) we should do it in a considered fashion.

(I don’t like eating veal, either. I’m not PETA-level crazy on animal rights, but I don’t like to think of them suffering.)

Or researching bovine stem cells and eating children!

I think you’re totally backward on this subject. PETA is a wacko organization that is given phony legitimacy by the media.

Run-of-the-mill PETA member and casual fans of animal rights are not who I’m thinking of when I say that. But let me make an intentionally extreme comparison here: Pam Anderson and many other celebrities go all out for PETA. If Benicio Del Toro campaigned in public for the ETA, or Cillian Murphy raised money for the IRA (15 years ago), or… well, anyone from the cast of 24 in the last few years… did ads for Hamas, would the media treat that as if it was a nice, feel-good thing to do? No, they’re fucking terrorists. But in the case of PETA, the media over and over again deliberately ignores fanatical comments from PETA leadership and proven financial help given to eco-terrorist groups. Why? Because the media views animal rights as a fuzzy-wuzzy cute issue not deserving of scrutiny.

Marley23, I’ll bet you dollars to donuts he’s a member in good standing.

By the way, in case anyone missed the article by the EEEEVVVIIIIILLLL!!! conservative George Will, a lesson to PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals) on how to state the case.

Seems to have a much more effective nuance than protesting a KFC.

Since I love starting shit with Metacom, it is in this spirit that I write this.

First and foremost, I am not a member of PETA. I’m not even a vegetarian. However, I do not see their argument as being less credible than anyone else’s.

If we all were to go vegan, I believe that no one in the world would be hungry. Now, you might think that this is wishful thinking but the simple fact that eating a cow that has eaten grass that has converted the energy from the sun into a usable form represents three levels in the breakdown of energy. Taking the cow out of the equation represents an energy saving of at least an order of magnitude. To me, the sheer economics of this concepts makes it highly logical.

Secondly, we think that human beings are the only ones with rights as living creatures. Now even the most jaded of you will agree that whenever we try to prove this it will invariably lead to circular reasoning. We humans have the right because we humans say so. We humans have proven this to ourselves even though we have never asked other lifeforms or have been able to communicate with them. What makes you think that we are the only ones with unalienable rights? What qualifies for having unalienable rights? What makes you so sure we have these rights? By virtue of what? That we can think? Well other animals can as far as we can determine. By virtue of our higher intelligence? Well that would mean a superior lifeform could eat us on this basis. Our concept of human rights should and must be extended to all life in order that it can be an absolute truth, one that stands on its own.

Some of you will simply not care and will just say “fuck it, if you don’t like it, too bad.” The only thing I can say to you is that when the aliens come to eat you that you remember your position.

There is a group of people who believe that animals need to be extended “human” rights. Now some of you will be up in arms about this and cite genocide and famine as reasons why they shouldn’t feel this way. The point is that the one does not exclude the other. Humans are not diminished by believing this. I would say that not recognizing this is part of the problem with humanity. Saying that humans butchering animals should go on because humans butcher humans speaks volumes about why we are the way we are. Certainly, PETA can be hypocritical and no one is completely non-hypocritical but, in their defense and in defense of other organizations dedicated to helping the less fortunate, they are trying and that is all we can ever do.

I just watched a show tonight called “Bullshit” with Penn and Teller (the first time I’d ever seen it) and on that show, someone claimed that today’s generation of Americans is one that has not experienced real atrocity, and so some people look for something to be shocked and horrified by, and latch onto the cause of animal rights and PETA.

I think that this is true. In countries with real problems (like parts of Africa, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East,) I doubt that PETA has many members. People are probably more concerned with the actual humans being killed around them (and where to find their next meal) to worry about the “rights” of a chicken.

Likewise, when America’s history was filled with conflicts and suffering, there was no animal rights movement to be found. During the Civil War, during the Great Depression, during the World Wars, during Vietnam, people didn’t give a damn about animal rights because there were wars going on that the nation was involved with in a really tangible way (unlike the Iraq war, because the army isn’t drafting people and our death toll is small compared to other wars.)

Now there is no war, there’s no great depression. As Tyler Durden said, “the great depression is our lives.” There’s no powerful uniting struggle and no suffering or horrors for the American people. We have gotten used to living comfortably and peacefully, and so to many people, the idea of animals being killed seems really horrible and something worth fighting against.

I’d venture to say that most of PETA’s membership is probably made up of upper-middle-class people, who live comfortably, and have never had to see other people be killed or had to worry about going hungry. Just a hunch…

While I do find myself to be morally depraved, I don’t think my finding stem cells worth researching and veal quite yummy really enters into it.

Eh… the truth, I find, is that most people just don’t know that about PETA. 'Cuz, like I said, the media doesn’t give it much attention.

I’m a vegetarian and I do care about animal rights, although I’m honest enough to admit it comes a distant second to human rights in some cases.

Actually the only PETA members I’ve personally known were lower-middle class at best.