I normally carry a Glock in a kydex IWB holster with a round in the chamber. I also love the type of holster linked to in the OP. I love them. There are so many ways of dress that just dont work with an IWB. Anytime you have to tuck in your shirt, for instance. Of anytime you’re not wearing a shirt at all.
If I’m at the beach, going out to clubs or dressed nice for some occassion, those crotch sack holsters are perfect. However, I don’t keep a round chambered when I’m using those. It always struck me as too flimsy to protect the trigger… and it appears I was right!
Nitpick: Glock pistols have an external trigger safety.
A number of law enforcement agencies have encouraged or mandated carrying pistols (and the Glock in particular) in Condition 3 when not carried in a duty-style holster. And a lot of negligent discharges by less-than-adequately trained law enforcement or military personnel could be avoided by carrying the weapon in such a condition. (This argues, in my mind at least, for better training and discipline rather than unready weaponry, but that is always an uphill battle.)
It’s not the ideal situation, but given the concealment limitations available to you, entirely understandable. This means that it is incumbent upon you to maintain control of your handbag at all times, of course, but provided that you do that there is not criticism due. Carrying the weapon in Condition 3 in this situation is responsible and recommended; and as you note, most defensive situations involve a precursor. Awareness is the second step (after preparation and before avoidance) in responding to a threat; if you’ve a threat upon you without sufficient prior warning to ready a weapon, you’re either oblivious or living in a war zone.
Stranger
I said that because your post seemed so incredibly over the top that I didn’t think you’d be interested in my apology. I certainly didn’t mean to offend you (I’m not even sure if you were reacting to my post or not), used to think you were fairly level-headed and interesting.
If you’re that self-conscious about how you carry, well it’s not really my problem. No one is bashing you, you expressed an opinion as did everyone else.
I wish I could own a weapon, but I have kids and no matter what, I honestly believe that the risks of curious boys outweigh the gains in owning a firearm.
I don’t want to conceal carry, I want a shotgun for home defense, but for aforementioned reasons, I fear the curious nature of boys searching Mom and Dad’s room when I’m not around and then killing themselves or each other.
Keeping a trigger lock on a weapon or a weapon in a gun safe is akin to asking an invader to “olley olley oxen free” or “timeout, let me get my gun ready” when you need it most.
But I can’t justify owning one right now. I have military experience with weapons and respect them as they should be respected. If it was just me, I’d keep several weapons in “cocked and locked” mode in various locations known only to me around the house. But that isn’t my situation.
You’re correct that a less-than-adequately trained person is safer w/o a round in the chamber. But self-defense experts do not care about appeasing the lowest common denominator. They only care about squeezing maximum performance and success from mature and well-trained individuals. They sometimes even argue that people who are not well-trained with firearms should reconsider the idea of carrying a firearm in the first place.
If it is assumed a mature and well trained individual is carrying the firearm, there is no debate on the issue of carrying a round in the chamber. Each and every “been there/done that” expert will tell you that a round should be carried in the chamber at all times. They will also tell you that, if you’re uncomfortable with carrying a round in the chamber, the solution is *not *to carry in Condition 3; the solution is to get more training.
Given that Una Persson is carrying off-body, I think that a Condition 3 carry is entirely appropriate regardless of training; this prevents the firearm from being drawn and readily used by someone else in the event the purse is separated from the carrier. If I were carrying a weapon for defense I would personally prefer to carry on-body (high rise pancake or IWB) and in Condition 1 for the reasons noted; however, the likelihood of a responding to a surprise attack (or indeed, the need to draw and use a weapon entirely) is largely negated by demonstrating situational awareness. I don’t doubt, from her previous comments, that Una Perrson maintains awareness in threatening situations and is otherwise prepared to bring her weapon to ready in an appropriate situation.
Of course, I’d much rather be in a situation where I’m sitting around a pool drinking gin & tonics than thinking about punching holes through nogoodniks. I have the good fortune in my current arrangements not to be much concerned about such threats (and it probably doesn’t hurt that a surprising number of shady people seem to think I look like a police officer) so I don’t spend much time these days worrying about this sort of thing. But if you live in a hair trigger environment where Condition 3 is totally unacceptable…personally, I’d move to Portland. Nice place, friendly people, although the weather can be a bit of sucks.
Stranger
To give Una a little backup, when I carried (Davis .380) I never kept a round in the chamber. The two reasons I had for this were 1. I trusted my instincts enough to have enough warning that I could chamber a round fast enough (it takes what, 1/2 a second at worst?) and 2. I believe there are no accidents, only unsafe behaviors practiced repeatedly without repercussion. With the weapon in this state I felt safe in carrying it as well as safe in having it available when needed.
I have experience with SA and DA weapons and understand why, as in the case of the 1911, they are safe when chambered but as I never expected to be in a quick draw situation I just feel that a zero energy state is safer. Again, as stated above, that is personal preference based on environment and experience.
Una -
I’m trying to imagine this…
You have your weapon in your bag
You sense that the situation is deteriorating to the point that a round SHOULD be chambered.
How do you pull out your weapon, cycle the slide, and then put it back in the bag WITHOUT causing the situation to deterioate to the point you might as well keep the thing in your hand?
IOW: doesn’t preparing the weapon CAUSE its (very probable) use?
I can see this working if you’re seated at a table in a noisy place - just reach under the table and do it (the background noise covers the sound).
But on a trail? If a Bad Person ™ is thinking you’re an easy mark, wouldn’t they be watching? Wouldn’t that make any confrontation a bit more dangerous to all concerned?
Have you ever/yet encountered a situation where you chambered aa round? Did any Bad Guy™ notice? Outcome?
I’m w/Una on this one, unchambered isn’t a panacea, but it takes an instant to chamber a round, and while some see that moment as make or break time lost, anyone that’s ever been in such a situation knows it rarely makes a difference. I’d be more worried about having it in the purse and having somebody tear the bag away from me, or me fumbling while retrieving it. (Luckily, I don’t carry a purse. 
) Those items alone make it a good idea to leave the chamber clear, keeping you from firing it while grabbing it, and giving you an extra second to strike back or exit the scene while the other side stares stupidly at the weapon after pulling the trigger.
Mostly though, if it happens that quickly, you’ve already made a series of mistakes, and the weapon is unlikely to balance all of those errors. Avoidance and awareness are underrated. If your reflexes are too good, it might make a difference, but if you spook yourself, speed might put you in jail, or screw up an otherwise pleasant life.
Say what you want, my first choice is always to flee. Not just because I lack the “honor” gene common in “wild west” fans and “noble wealthy duelists”, but because it’s been the biggest component of my training. From executive protection to krav maga, your primary goal is survival. If that means discharging a sidearm, so be it. The other 99.9% of the time, not entering the situation, or fleeing it is the only real option.
Besides, the second ‘C’ in CCW means concealed. If you’re not concealing it well enough to buy yourself a moment of the attacker’s attention, you’re missing the point. Yes, they might jump out of nowhere, but a gun alone won’t help you, you’re either in hand-to-hand range, or you chamber as you raise and aim. A little practice, you won’t lose any time chambered or not.
And frankly, if you’re hit that fast, don’t even unholster the thing, just firing off a round is likely to throw off their attack. If you can aim, fine, but as long as you don’t shoot yourself, the noise should buy you a second or two to react in a more appropriate way. Yes, it goes against the one-shot one-kill doctrine, but who cares if it saves your tail?
Why would she put it back in the bag at this point? Once she has cycled the action–putting the gun in battery–the weapon should be kept at low ready, just as if it were drawn in battery. Cycing the action takes only two or three seconds; the only concern is being able to do this reliably, under stress, in a variety of conditions. Once the threat is gone, you drop the magazine, cycle the action to remove the round from the chamber, and restow the weapon.
The four stages of a defensive posture are awareness, prevention, avoidance, and combat. If you’ve gotten from zero to combat without even recognizing the other stages you are either the target of some dedicated and experienced aggressor, or you’ve missed the ball completely. On the other hand, the vast majority of attacks can be prevented simply by demonstrating awareness and preventing an attack from even getting started (i.e. averting potentially dangerous situations). If you are in a threatening situation and have the opportunity to evacuate safely (and not leave others in harm’s way), this is clearly the moral and typically legal preference. Only on the vary rare occurrence that you are threatened and cornered should you need to draw and ready a weapon; and generally speaking, if you’ve been paying attention the few seconds required to cycle the action aren’t critical.
This is a different situation entirely for police officers, who by the nature of their job are required to enter threatening situations and (on rare occasions) have to be prepared to draw and fire with little or no warning. But as rare as this is for most police officers it is even less likely for civilians whose first instincts should be to leave the threatening situation, not enter or initiate a confrontation.
Sorry, this is bad advice. You should not fire a pistol from the holster; aside from the fact that you can’t aim it, the presence of the holster is likely to interfere with the cycling of the action (either for a pistol or revolver), requiring that a tap-rack-bang drill on a pistol. There is an argument for point or punch shooting rather than visual indexing at near touching range, but firing from within a holster or clothing pocket is likely to give you a one shot gun. If you do find yourself under immediate, unanticipated attack the best thing to do is not draw the weapon, exposing it to grapple, but instead fight back physically until you can make enough space to draw and ready the weapon. This argues for not relying just on the pistol but instead having other readily accessible non-lethal means of defense or some measure of effective training in unarmed combat. If someone gets the drop on you, the notion that you’ll be able to out-draw and fire on them first is pretty much all Hollywood; the best you can really hope for in that situation is that they’re just a bad shot, which is true of a surprising number of would-be pistoleros.
Stranger
If I chamber a round, I’m ready to use the weapon. Meaning that if I take the gun out and chamber a round it’s staying out until the situation improves.
Only once, and that was before concealed carry. I was sitting in my car and took the gun from my center console, chambered, and kept it below my window. In a related case I took the gun from the center console, worked the external safety off, and then showed it out the window, pointed in the air. In the first case the situation didn’t escalate so I put the safety on and unloaded the weapon later when I was less distracted, and in the second the person harassing me fled, and I put the weapon away later, again, when I wasn’t distracted. So I guess in neither case did the person threatening me notice the actual chambering.
I got nothing about guns. I’m just amused, because this is pretty much the only msg board I spend time at. I should start hopping on some more right-wing ones. I’d be able to see stuff like this more often.
Absolutely correct. I spend a very large amount of effort on the first three, and generally it served me well. The last Bad Thing that happened to me was because I failed in Awareness that day and was caught flat-footed. Actually, in terms of the major Bad Things that have happened to me…
Bad Thing 1 (armed sexual assault) - prevention failure.
Bad Thing 2 (armed robbery) - avoidance failure.
Bad Thing 3 (unarmed battery) - avoidance failure.
Bad Thing 4 (armed robbery) - awareness failure.
Glock? I don’t carry with a round chambered, either.
It seems like a perfectly good word to me: Notwithstanding Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
That time estimate seems very high. With any practice at all, racking the slide should require well under one second.
Stress and reliability, however, are not the only concern. Chambering a round requires the use of both hands, turning a handgun into a handsgun. If an attacker or the situation restrains or injures either hand, the gun becomes useless.
I’m being conservative in my estimate of what it adds to draw time.
Again, if you are in grappling distance, drawing the pistol is ill-advised, IMHO. An injury to hand or arm may prevent you some cycling the action, but by this logic one should also carry pistols on both sides in case the strong arm is injured. The likelihood of having and being able to respond to an instant, unannounced attack from some passing stranger is pretty low. More than likely, if the defender is maintaining awareness he or she should have enough time to ready the weapon; if not and a determined perpetrator already has the drop on the defender, having a pistol at ready but not in hand may not be all that useful anyway. The average person–even a gun enthusiast or armed security–isn’t trained to go from “lah de dah” to full combat in a split second and would probably demonstrate poor judgment if they tried. Heck, even well-trained police officers often display confusion, tunnel focus, and poor judgment in combat situations, and the average CCW holder doesn’t walk around with the kind of siege mentality that many police do.
For Una Perrson, carrying her pistol in Condition 3 makes sense from both a safety and comfort standpoint, and the fact that isn’t as tactically ready as a pistol carried in a high rise side draw at Condition 1/0 is offset by the fact that this is the only way she can or will carry it at all. I expect (or at least hope) that she is also carrying some less-than-lethal measures–OC spray, a compact high intensity flashlight, et cetera–which can be used in close quarters without risking a grappling situation with a pistol and giving time to make distance and escape or prepare the pistol for use. Perhaps this is not the ultimate ideal condition of readiness but we can’t all be this guy.
Now can we get back to discussing the question of the o.p., to wit, the advisability of carrying a firearm in Condition 1, ‘locked and cocked’ (or for GSA and DAO pistols, Condition 0)?
Stranger
If you don’t have one, my advice would be to buy or rent one and not worry about self defense for now. Take your boys out and train them on proper safety and reverence for firearms. If you still don’t feel comfortable keeping one around, then fine, but at least give them the framework to know what to do in those situations. The same thing could come up at a friend’s house, and those parents might be less diligent in securing their firearms.
Or maybe you already have taught them safety, in which case ignore this.
It’s not that bad, and it can’t be much worse than being devoid of protection. Check out a variety of lock styles, talk with dealers to see what’s new, favored, dependable, and think about them a bit. You’ll want one you can open quietly, with your hands shaking, in complete darkness. Then you’ll want to practice with it till you don’t think about it. Depending on your wife/kids, you may or may not decide to have them do the same.
Stranger (about the holster shot): You’re correct, it’s a bad idea, fraught with problems. However, never rule out options, and take the situation into account. Walking down the street at night alone in a risky area of the US is a bad idea anyway, but is a different situation from working team EP in other places. If you’re working with equally armed friends, your distraction may buy your companions milliseconds. You understand the situation enough to know you don’t think about it, so it’s better to run these scenarios beforehand until they don’t require thought. One shot may clear the problem, or escalate it. Your one shot might be your only contribution to the situation, so taking it when you can might overrule your desire to remain armed. Just about everything else is a better option, but it’s there as an extremely last resort.
And powder burns are no joke, either…