The 1911 in there has to be either Condition 2 or 3. Condition 2 with a 1911 is just asking for a .45 inch hole in your leg, and Condition 3 is useless unless you’ve trained to do an Israeli draw. If you carry in Condition 1, is the strap supposed to go under the cocked hammer? Wouldn’t that get stuck?
I have a lot of respect for John Browning and other designers from that era. Although they are out of fashion, a Smith & Wesson revolver is still an excellent firearm, even though the original design dates back to 1899.
When I was in the Army, we were trained to carry the M1911A1 in condition 3 (empty chamber). With a bit of practice, it isn’t difficult to quickly draw the pistol, rack the slide, aim and fire.
In our lawsuit-happy society, my most recent 1991A1 purchase specifically stated in the manual that Condition 1 is acceptable. Can you imagine corporate lawyers letting something like that by if cocked ‘n’ locked was at all dangerous? I trust my “100 year old single action pistol” a dang site more than I’d trust a new fangled auto.
Actually, that’s not true, my 1991A1 is based on the 1911, but has some additional safety features that the original lacks, so condition 2 is safe as well… so nevermind.
CynicalGabe, looks to me like that is a crappy design for a 1911 holster.
Well, in any case, the point is that if you’re not trained to draw and slide, and also afraid of carrying cocked and locked ( I don’t know what any of your American “condition 0/1/2/3” stuff means, sorry), then maybe you should carry a Glock or something a little more foolproof.
I’m use to the Browning HP, with its’ delightful “magazine safety” feature. Strange how no pistol made after 1935 ever incorprated that particular " safety feature" again.
The first time I saw a Berreta M9, I had never seen a double action pistol before. So imagine my suprise when I hit the decocker and GASPthe hammer goes down!!1! After that I decided not to fool around with strange foreign firearms until someone competent comes by to show me exactly how they work.
HA! Same thing happened to me the first time I messed with a double action (I think it was a Makarov) Scared the bejezus out of me.
I agree, and carry “cocked and locked”.
Condition 0 - round in the chamber, hammer cocked
Condition 1 - round in the chamber, hammer cocked, safety on
Condition 2 - round in the chamber, hammer down
Condition 3 - um, probably unloaded or something, don’t know why anyone would do this
I tossed this out off of memory, so I won’t be even a little insulted if someone corrects me.
I’m fairly sure I had a Mauser M2 that had a magazine safety (or was that a whoosh? it’s late over here)
Dude, it’s a $40 three position holster; of course it’s a piece of shit. I’m trying to recall a quality 1911 carry holster that has a retention strap and I can’t think of one offhand (other than shoulder holsters, which only a piker would use). Most just use friction/clamp spring retention, though I’m sure there’s something out there that contravenes my experience
The Series 80 1911A1, 1991A1, and many other high quality 1911 clones have a sear block/firing pin stop that will (theoretically) prevent a drop-fire in Condition 2[sup]*[/sup]. However, carry in Condition 2 on a 1911, being a single action auto, is pretty useless and not much of an improvement over Condition 3.
And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with carry in Condition 1, provided that your arm is in good repair and you have been trained and drilled to handle a firearm properly. Relying on a mechanical safety or a heavy trigger pull to correct inadvisable and dangerous firearm handling is a recipe for disaster.
Tutorial for the uninitiated:
Condition 3: Hammer down, chamber empty. Can’t fire noway.
Condition 2: Hammer down, chamber loaded. Could fire if dropped and firing pin is allowed to move. :o
Condition 1: Hammer back, chamber loaded, manual safety on. Cool if you don’t grab the gun by the trigger. :smack:
Condition 0: Hammer back, chamber loaded, manual safety off. :eek:
Ruger uses a magazine safety on some of their autopistols. I think a few other manufacturers (H&K?) have dabbled with it over the years. One advantage of it is that if you are involved in a struggle for the gun you can drop the magazine and render the pistol useless, or so it is claimed. Most professionals disable the magazine safety as part of standard tuning of he Hi-Power (which is an excellent and vastly superior pistol over the 1911 despite its inferior chambering).
Using the decocker on a firearm so equipped is the proper way to lower the hammer, despite Jeff Cooper’s protestations to the contrary, though obviously the gun should be pointed in a safe direction while doing so.
I have an adjustable bianchi leather holster that uses a retaining “clip”, for alck of a better word. A spring-loaded plug goes through the trigger guard, and you push a button to retract it and draw the gun.
Since CCW is illegal in Australia, I only use military holsters- which were designed purely to avoid officers wandering around with a revolver stuck in their waistband like Mexican bandits from one of those Pathe things people seemed to like so much - when I’m shooting in holster-enabled competitions.
Seriously though, I’ve got a Pattern '37 Webbing holster for my Webley Mk VI, and I plan to order a WWI-pattern leather holster off IMA once I get some cash together and satisfy myself that the shipping won’t bankrupt me…
I’ve never felt comfortable carrying a cocked and locked semi-automatic pistol in a holster- I’d rather sacrifice a second or two time-wise to cock the pistol as or after I draw, than risk getting a 9mm slug in my foot.
This is partly because I don’t own a 9mm, so I have to borrow Club guns for use in competitons like this… and I don’t “know” the Club guns well enough to be comfortable having a loaded and ready one on my hip, even at the firing line.
Having said that, I’m quite comfortable carrying a loaded revolver with all six chambers loaded- provided the hammer is down. One of the advantages to Military revolvers is they have Lanyard rings, making it more or less impossible for the revolver to hit the ground even if you do manage to drop it.
Interestingly, I prefer to cross-draw when the rules allow it, since for me it’s a more “natural” way to draw from a military-style holster.
It seems to work best with large, heavy guns (like a Webley Mk VI, a Colt Peacemaker, or a M1911 in .45) than for things like Glocks or Berettas, IMO, though…
I used to own a S&W Model 469, a 9MM DA/SA pistol. It had a magazine “safety” and that was one of the reasons I sold it.
I shoot IDPA and am a Safety Officer. After a string of fire we give the command of “unload and show clear”, then “Slide Forward”, followed by “Hammer Down”. If the shooter has a pistol with a mag safety and no decocker, they have to insert an empty magazine to drop the hammer. :rolleyes:
I don’t either. But someone participating in IDPA needs one in order to pull the trigger and have the hammer or striker fall. I’ve heard that some clubs allow you to reinsert a partly or fully loaded magazine, but we don’t do it that way.
And i’ve seen some shooters come back the next time with a different firearm.
A Glock is far from foolproof. It won’t fire unless you pull the trigger with a round in the chamber, but if you catch it on a holster strap you could be in trouble. I work with lots of folks who are required to carry at all times (and sometimes carry myself - depending on the situation), and have never heard of an accidental discharge with a Glock (other than from operator idiocy. . . I mean, “error”); I have, however known one person who lost half his leg to a poor holstering technique, and heard of 2 others who have been hit by their own shots because of sloppy handling. A Glock is NOT a toy (nor are any firearms) and are, in fact, very dangerous. Also, great guns, though. I love my model 22 and 27.
The M1911 series is alive and well: it is a popular choice among PDs, especially SWAT/SRT types, and the USMC is going back to a 1911-style .45ACP. Colt, SW, Kimber and a bazillion firms make good money manufacturing this “obsolete” weapon.
The Glocks will, by my experience, fire on an empty chamber. At least mine (G-22, .40SW) will do so.
I suspect that for every person who is squicked-out by a locked and cocked G-22, there is a corresponding person who is squicked-out by a locked and cocked M1911.
As an alternative, the SigSauer P220 is a fine choice for .45ACP, but the HK USP series is also popular. Both offer comfort factors in condition one carry, and both have credibility in both military and police circles.
The Glock 17, 17A, and 34 can most certainly be fired on an empty chamber without a magazine in the gun… and the trigger pull on them isn’t that heavy, either.
Incidentally, I’ve always referred to the “OMG Glock Rulez!!1!11!” attitude as the Glockenspiel, because it’s usually followed by a long recital of All That Is Right With Glock Handguns… and ironically, the reciter is usually someone who knows little about guns and has just played CounterStrike too often.
I know there are a lot of people who genuinely prefer Glocks for various personal and operation weapons- and they do have a lot of advantages over other types of handgun- but personally, I like my guns to have been involved in at least one World War, or date from a time when it was still fashionable to have Colonies.