CasiNO?

Great Debates
1

Here in beautiful West Warwick, Rhode Island there is a continual controversy concerning a local tribe of Indians wanting to build a casino. They claim that it will bring untold wealth and prosperity to the fine people of West Warwick, which already has the largest tax rates of any town in RI. This has been going on for quite a while now with the discussions going back and forth between the town and the state and the Indians trying to convince everyone that the people of RI have a consitutional right to vote on the whole project.

I’m pretty much against the project myself for more than a few reasons. For one thing, they’ve told us that the casino will bring business into West Warwick. If that happens, we really don’t have the infrastructure to handle the extra traffic. So, they say, they will build handy off ramps onto and from I-95. Which will effectively keep people OUT of the town proper.

And we won’t even get into the idea of municipal income based on gambling being a tax on the stupid.

The state, however, has decided to form a committee to investigate the possibilities inherent with the whole deal which will effectively put the whole deal off of the general ballot until probably 2004. Many of the locals, including the Indians, believe that it’s going to effectively kill any plans they had and that possible competing casinos in Massachusetts or New Hampshire (none of which have been planned yet) will by then have sprung up and choked the lucre that would have gone to RI.

So … I’m especially interested in hearing debate from people on this issue; especially from anyone who lives in a town with an indian casino. Has it adversely affected your town? Are you seeing any tax advantage? Has it been a worthwhile proposition?

2

I do not gamble and cant under stand why any one would give hard earned money away. Casino’s are addicting and I have seen first hand the damage caused so good luck with your fight to stop it, however the Indians will cry racism if the dont get their way and the government and town wants the extra tax base so get ready for your new casino.

my thoughts…Angelslantern

3

Going to the casino is entertainment. Like other forms of entertainment, you pay a price for engaging in it. Like other forms of entertainment, some people go overboard and damage their lives because they can’t moderate their desires.

I have no interest whatsoever in having the state protect me from my own foibles. People screw up, all the time.

For example: The bankruptcy rate among young working class families in Alberta skyrocketed last year, for one major reason: trucks. A culture has built up around the pickup truck that puts big pressure on young blue collar men to buy them. But trucks are also extremely expensive these days, and depreciate very quickly. And, the car companies have been lowering credit standards because of the weak economy and offering low-interest deals. This has caused a LOT of young families to buy vehicles they can’t afford. These are families with household incomes of maybe $45,000, and a truck payment of $700. Bad, bad move.

Should we make those choices illegal? How about having the government approve the purchase of trucks? Setting government income standards for lending money?

I’ve got a better idea: How about we just let people mind their own damned business?

BTW, Edmonton has FOUR very large casinos, and last I checked the sky hasn’t fallen.

4

When Atlantic City NJ decided to legalize gambling, one justification was that it would help the economic condition of the many poor people who lived there. As I understand it, this has not occurred. The run-down areas bad as ever or worse.

5

Casinos do make a lot of money for the Indians and I’m not against it. They also provide employment opportunities that in many cases, these people need. Ever been through an indian reservation in the midwest? Not a pretty site most of the time. I’m all for giving them new opportunities that might help them improve their quality of life, perhaps even providing future generations with stability and better educational opportunities.

I’ve spent time in three areas that allow Indian casinos; South Dakota, Colorado, and California. Yes, they now have gamblers anonymous billboards and the occasional story of the mother who spent her food money at the casino but by for the most part, I don’t think the downside has outweighed the positives.

I also think that Sam Stone makes some great points about the states needing to stop trying to protect everyone from their own choices in life.

6

Casinos in general don’t bother me, though you won’t find me in one. What bothers me is that the Indians can open a casino and bring in oodles of money, yet if a non-indian has a couple of slot machines in his tavern, regardless if he’s black, white, or yellow, he’s a felon. I know all this goes back to treaties and stuff, but those treaties are old, and mostly a joke. It’s funny how the same people who claim some Amendments to our Constitution are old and outdated still claim that treaties with Indian tribes (treaties that are almost as old) are still valid. The Indians insist on making any land they own declared “reservation” land for the sole purpose of opening casinos. They spend oodles of money advertising on television claiming how many jobs casinos provide.
These are the same bullshit arguments used when someone wants to build a new sports stadiums at tax payer expense. In the overall picture of things, neither casinos nor stadiums provided enough jobs to benefit the majority of the community.

Treaties aside, I find letting one race of people do something no other race is allowed to do, a violation of equal protection. When blacks, whites, asians, and everybody else, are allowed to open gambling parlors, then I’ll drop my opposition to Indian gaming.

7

Not that you, specifically would be able to answer these Euty, but:

  1. If other casinos in Mass and NH would have choked out business if they wait until 2004, what difference would it make if they started building now? It’s not going to change the flood in the market of indian reservation casinos.

  2. Why do the indians need government money to start up their business. It’s a business, right? Let them get by how everyone else does, with their own money! Um…sports teams notwithstanding grumble

8

I live near a very small town (2000 souls) with an Indian casino about 10 years old now. Honestly there are good points and bad points. One of the most interesting aspects I’ve seen is that prior to gambling our tiny tribe was pretty darn poor and worse than that, downtrodden in that there was little self-respect. Ten years later, they’re flush and more noticeably, regaining pride and self-assurance.

There is, at least for a small town, an increase in available jobs. Almost all of them are minimum wage with some benefits for some of the longer-term workers. Few members of the tribe work there.

There has been a marked increase in crime in the last 10 years. I don’t know whether it is the fault of the casino or meth users. In retrospect, I think the crime due to the casino tends to be more blue collar type, but there is also a huge amount of domestic abuse that I would attribute to gambling.

There is absolutely no question that gambling is an addiction for a rather large percentage of the population. As a non-gambler it is eye opening to walk through the place and watch people staring intently at the video poker machines and only moving to stuff more money into it or pushing the buttons. The sound and the flashing lights are enough to drive me batty, but it seems to mesmerize others.

I could tell you all kinds of horror stories but I’ll limit myself to one. An older couple, both self-employed at separate businesses were approaching retirement and had their savings needed to live comfortably. The wife had always been a fanatical bingo player, traveling 150 miles for an evening of bingo. When the casino was built along with a bingo parlor, she became a regular. She would literally spend the entire day in front of a machine. It’s incredibly obvious to anyone, that you never get ahead in those places. Obvious to everyone that is, except her husband who blindly believed her when she told him that she was always ahead. Bit by bit all of their assets went into those machines. The problem didn’t come to attention until she died, pretty much leaving an uncomprehending husband facing a dismal future.

In a sense, it has had the effect of swapping misery. The tribe has benefited but the rest of the community has, in my opinion suffered.

9

Whew, good thing we won’t get into that! 'Cause if they start getting income from gambling, next thing you know they’ll want to add taxes to cigarettes and liquor, and then where will we be, I ask you! WHERE?!

10

I’m certainly not against the idea that people should have the right to be self-determinative and if they do want to to throw their money away gambling, they have a perfect right to do so. I’m more concerned about the long term effect of casinos on the smaller towns where they seem to be cropping up. (I’m not talking about say, Reno or Las Vegas where it’s become more institutionalized.)

I suppose one of the reasons I’m so up in arms about it is because the town has pretty much put all it’s eggs in one basket and now that the idea of a casino has pretty much been put on the back burner for at least a few years, they have no fallback ideas for any economic development. It seemed to be this or nothing and I think the town in general was misled by the idea of tons of money flooding into the town and suddenly fixing all of our problems instead of a slow build-up of business which might be more stable for the town in the long run. Plus, people are now saving the land they own with the idea that, if the casino is going to be built eventually, they can get better money for it than they would if they sold now for an industrial site.

To hit to a few points here :

And this is one of the peculiarities of Rhode Island and why some people believe us to be so provincial. We already do have Lincoln Greyhound Park up north which has had slots for quite a while and is even now trying to negotiate with the legislature for the right to put in more. This is where it gets tricky. The law states that they only have to go to the lege to extend any gambling that currently exists, but the Wampanoags have to have a majority vote in a general election because it’s new gambling. And it doesn’t help at all when some of the govenor’s relatives work at Lincoln. Nor does it help when the appearance is that Representative Patrick Kennedy is accepting campaign money from Harrah’s of Las Vegas and has arranged a meeting with them.

They don’t need govenment money. In fact they have had extensive discussions with Bard Gaming who will pretty much be the “behind the scenes” people. But, as I stated before, according to the laws of RI, they do need state permission to build anything new.

Which, I think is exactly my concern and why I was asking for first hand experiences. I have no doubt that the Wampanoags will prosper, but will they do so at the expense of the already existing
community?

11

Hmmm… Let’s see. On a cold winter night if I stand in front of my house and look to the left, I see Foxwoods. If I look to the right, I see the Mohegan Sun. I guess I qualify.

Two big issues around here: 1) the casinos themselves, and 2) potential growth.

The casinos themselves have been a pain, but not as bad as you might think (yet). Traffic has increased a lot, crime is up a little. Out-of-state license plates and the bad driving implied are up a lot. The casinos are sort-of off highways, so apart from the highways (95) getting clogged on holidays, the local roads aren’t too bad. An unexpected negative is the influx of workers needed to man the casinos. Local social services are really taxed to their limits.

Tax advantages? No, not really. One-quarter of slot revenues (which are currently about 100 million a month) goes to the state from a devil-deal that gives the two casinos sole slot rights in the state. But, that is used by the state with only a small portion being split among all towns in the state. And our taxes are on the rise from the increased roadwork and police services required.

The growth thing is the kicker. The Mashantuckets are buying up a ton of land locally. The big fear is that they will try to annex this land onto the reservation to build more casino/resort facilities (golf courses, hotels, etc. - hey, at one point both Six Flags and the Patriots were rumored to be coming here). Of course once it’s annexed it’s off the tax roles (a local construction company doing work at the casino swung a deal allowing them to park all their vehicles on the reservation at night - this took all that property tax away).

West Warwick is probably a lot different as that area is fairly developed. I’d fight it if I were you.

PS: Euty, feel free to email me if you have specific questions about this area. - Pete

12

Tax on the stupid? I have no problem with that.

And if you want to talk about economic impact on people, try supporting a family on a soldier’s wage. I made twice as much dealing as I did in the service and worked less than half the hours.

After I left the army (X-ray technician, about $1400/mo) I repaired solid state electronics for a seismic surveying crew (about $13/hr) before becoming a casino dealer ($18-25/hr.) Of course, it took about three months of dealers’ school before I actually hit the tables. And after medical expenses had ravaged my finances and I didn’t have the money to bury my wife, the EVIL, SINFUL casino gave me a thousand dollars, quietly, without being asked and with the insistance that I NOT pay it back. I wish Bill Harrah was still alive today so I could thank him for creating an organisation that so values its people. In contrast to the US Army (“The only thing more expendable than a soldier is his family.”) which decided that my wife didn’t REALLY need chemotherapy. If Uncle Sam was a living, breathing human being; I wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire!

Don’t like the fact that people who are stupid, impulsive or can’t get their head out of the clouds go broke while intelligent, diciplined, responsible people ussually prosper? You don’t need casinos around to facilitate that. BTW, I am a very avid, and winning, gambler. I am as much a student of poker and 21 as I am of computer programming and networking. I hope to support myself with the former one day but, failing that, should do well with the latter.

13

I just want to note that the casino here is strictly video poker machines and there is no sharing with the state and virtually none with the community. In fact the casino now charges the equivelent of the state’s sales tax, “just to even things out with competitors”.

14

pkbites

Allow me to explain, briefly if possible.

For the purposes of this discussion, it’s important to realize that Indian tribes are considered sovereign, dependent nations. While there is a racial component to tribal membership, the federal government is primarily concerned with tribes as sovereign political entities, not unlike states or territories.

When a tribe becomes federally recognized, the United States is acknowledging a well-defined pre-existing sovereignty inherent in that tribe by right of its existence prior to the creation of the United States. One of the rights conferred upon a federally recognized tribe is the right to exist outside of state boundaries and to govern its own internal affairs. Just as states have the right to regulate gaming operations, so do tribes. This right was upheld in the Supreme Court decision California b. Cabazon Band of Mission Indians, and directly resulted in the creation of the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (not to be confused with the International Gay Rodeo Association). Right? Right.

Only in New England is this right being severely challenged, largely because non-Indian New Englanders refuse to accept the concept of tribal sovereignty. Here is a recent, particularly egregious example.

The Narragansetts were especially well-screwed because of this little rider deftly inserted by the Rhode Island delegation into the Narragansett Indian Claims Settlement Act:

That’s why the Narragansetts don’t have a casino already. In order for that tribe to have gaming, the law must be subverted or changed in such a way as to allow gaming on sovereign Narragansett land. However, they may be able to run a gaming operation as a corporate entity on Rhode Island land, and that is the only reason why Rhode Islanders have a say in what’s being proposed.

I’m going to say this once, and then shut up: Indian sovereignty is very real and yet very fragile. Gaming on Indian land is (except for the Narragansetts) an indisputable right of Indian tribes. Those who attack Indian gaming are inadvertantly (or sometimes intentionally) attacking the very existence of Indian tribes themselves. Federal law today definitively states that in general, surrounding communities have no right at all to impose their opinions upon what a tribe chooses to do on its own land, and the law is also explicit in removing traditional remedies such as fairness doctrines. Some of you may not like that, but that’s how it is. Believe me, there are droves of people out there trying to change that. I’d like all of you to ask yourselves why.

Rhode Island is getting a free ride because of the unique exception I named above. What the state is really deciding upon is whether or not to allow a corporation to set up a legalized gambling operation within the state. The fact that it is an Indian tribe somehow changes peoples’ perception of the issue.

And that’s where I need to shut up, lest things get ugly.

15

If the tribes are sovereign nations, independent from the surrounding land, why do fireworks dealers on the reservation ask “Are you a cop?”

16

Don’t know. If I were an Indian selling fireworks, my question would be “are you a fed?” And I think it’s pretty well established that the feds don’t have to tell you jack shit, anyway.

Another, more compelling reason may be that tribal members have a certain self-awareness of their own fragility; asking that question may be all about trying to avoid the bigger question, which may be “how the hell am I getting away with this?” I hope my earlier synopsis helps to explain that in part.

17

Sofa-

Good post. Well researched statement. I was going to add to it, but I think you’ve said enough to educate without inflaming anyone, so I’ll pass on adding.

18

Sofa, would you happen to know what the situation is in Massachusetts, as I believe we are even further behind Rhode Island in terms of recognizing the rights of Indian Tribes (Wompanoags and Pequots, IIRC) to open casinos on their land?

As far as the ethics of gambling goes, I am morally opposed to gambling… with my money. And I think casinos are a better idea than a state-run lottery with really poor payouts that can only survive because any competition has been banned.

And as far as the economic advantages of exploiting land that is not under the country’s full sovereignty due to having its own pre-existing sovereignty, that’s been a fact of life ever since France and England realized what was going on in Monaco and the Channel Islands, respectively.