Don’t forget, Sam, that there is a very old and close association between the Jewish people and the Left, which is what made it possible for Hitler to sell his Big Lie about the International Jewish-Communist Conspiracy. Ever heard of Karl Marx? Leon Trotsky (nee Bronstein)? Emma Goldman? Daniel DeLeon? Max Schachtman? Julius and Ethel Rosenberg? I do not mention these names to disparage (nor to laud) either the Left or the Jews. I merely wish to point out that attributing some kind of attitudinal antisemitism to the Left is preposterous. Leftist opposition to Israel’s policies is based in the Left’s traditional moral outrage over the plight of oppressed peoples, such as (in 19th-Century Russia) the Jews and (in contemporary Palestine) the Palestinians.
Oh, and I repeat here and now and loud and proud: FUCK ISRAEL!
Sam, this is MY thread and if you can’t play nice I’d like you to leave. The antisemitism remark was so preposterously out of left field (BTW, a baseball reference, not a political one) that I am forced to wonder about your sanity. And the Human Rights Watch citation? Same one I used while assembling the OP. Next time you’re over there check out some of the other Latin American countries’ records. If you have by then learned to open your mind to thoughts that conflict with your preconceptions and your hatreds you will see that Cuba’s record is about average and if we don’t have embargos going with Mexico, Columbia, and Peru we have no logical, legal, or moral reason to continue the embargo of Cuba.
As far as non-Stormfront posters go, that’s the most crass and offensive thing I’ve seen on this board. The “I was talking about people who criticize Israel” crap isn’t going to help you weasel your way out of this shameless remark. Just wanted to let you know.
Just for the sake of completeness I should add: Fuck Israel and bless the Jews. Very good and dear people, most of them. I can’t understand how a culture with such an admirable moral code could have produced such a horrible and oppressive political state – oh, wait, of course I can, I’m an American! 
You know what? You’re right. When I was writing that I was thinking of specific poster and had just finished reading some nasty comments, and I was annoyed. The comment was out of line. My apologies.
Coincidence, or… yeah, coincidence.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/10/21/castro.fall/index.html
The fascination for Castro (and others of his ilk) is a puzzle to me. Particularly as the communist states have such a horrible human rights record.During the 1930’s, American liberal journalists made the pilgrimage to Stalin’s Russia, and reported on how happy the inmates were! Not a WORD about Stalin’s murder of 3 million Ukrainians,or the gulags in the Arctic Siberia.
Similarly with castro-they admire his wonderful “free” healthcare…but they don’t talk about the imprisonment of homosexuals, or the “re-education camps”, or the fact that Havana is falling apart…Nah, that would detract from the heroic revolutionary (Castro). Of course none of them (the leftys) would ever DREAM of emigrating to Castro’sCuba-they would shortly find themselves in a prison camp, or the recipients of a bullet to the head.
PS: How DOES Castro get millions of people to listen to his 6-hour speeches/tirades? Do you get free ice cream for listening!
Yes, because if we say his name without spitting on the ground immediately afterwards, it means we secretly have closets full of Che Guavera t-shirts…
I’m a pro-Israel lefty, so Sam not every lefty is anti-Israel.
Back to Castro- nobody wants to pin a medal on him. But I think we need to ask ourselves a question: does the embargo hurt Castro or does the embargo hurt the Cuban people? I think the answer is obvious. The embargo has done nothing to cause Castro to teeter, let alone fall.
The Cuban human rights abuses are horrific. But considering the torture going on in Guantanamo and US prisons in Iraq, who are Americans to judge? I think we have a case of seeing the speck in our brother’s eye and not the plank in our own.
This really is the only reason that matters. Does anyone really cares that Cuba was an embarassment to Kennedy fourty years ago? As that episode with that Cuban boy showed us a few years back, the Cuban Americans in Florida are the only ones who really care either way.
Look at the second listed definition. And it is consistent with the attitude of many white racists. While members of the KKK have no love for Jews, they’d also see the Palestinians as just a bunch of “camel jockeys” or such. There are people who hate all Semites in general.
BobLibDem said:
Do you apply that standard consistently? If you do, no problem. But the, “who are we to judge?” argument tends to get used awfully selectively. But frankly, since I’m not responsible for Guantanamo, I feel perfectly free to judge others. I have judged Castro, and found him wanting.
And while my previous statement may have been over the line, the sentiment behind it is valid. Why are so many people who just hate Israel with a passion so willing to give a pass to murderous dictators like Castro? If they are so concerned with the plight of Palestinians, why are they so silent when Palestinians are abused by their fellow Arabs?
This is the part I don’t get. Brainglutton just about goes into a frothing rage when the subject of Israel comes up, and yet the presence of a brutal dictator a few miles offshore of the United States bothers him not one bit. In fact, among the lefties I know, Castro is almost a hero figure. Our Canadian Prime Minister used to pride himself in being good friends with Castro, and visited him often. Our leftists thought that was great. When I was in college, I endured many lectures from useful idiots and fellow travellers on the greatness that was socialist Cuba. They were startling in their ignorance and the inconsistent way they would apply their love of human rights. Communists oppressing people? Well, you’ve got to break some eggs to make an omelette.
I’m against torture and human rights abuses no matter who is the culprit. I’m just saying the 40 years of embargo haven’t helped and have more likely hurt. Time to change tactics. We abhored the massacre in Tianamen Square, but trading with the Chinese and seeing their market economy take off ultimately is going to result in more freedom for the Chinese people.
No doubt. But when you hear someone make a derogatory remark about Arabs, do you think, “That guys’ an anti-semite,” or do you think, “That guy’s a racist,” - I suspect it’s the latter.
Which is everyone’s point.
Same reason we like to burn Old Glory and fellate al-Qaeda terrorists, ralph. We hate America. There, the secret’s out. I feel so much better.
To the contrary, it bothers me a whole lot of really big bits. No one (who does not live in Cuba or Miami) will feel more relieved than I when Castro passes from the scene. But his very real crimes are still not great enough to justify the way the Miami Cubans feel about him, and the embargo is a stupid idea and always has been. So he’s a dictator? We have friendly trade relations (and, in some cases, military alliances) with lots of dictatorships. So he’s a Communist? What does that matter nowadays? If we open free trade with Cuba, the Cuban people will get a taste of all the things American capitalism can produce – and they’ll want more. Opening trade will also increase cultural contacts, and they’ll learn a lot more about how things are here than Castro has been willing to tell them. And Cuba will go prosperous – which is a good thing even if it shores up Castro’s regime in the short run. When Communism falls in Cuba, we should want it to fall the way it fell in the relatively prosperous states of Eastern Europe, not the way it fell in the desperately impoverished Soviet Union.
These are the main points (as I see it), and need to be re-stated.
There’s a fairly straightforward explanation for a lot of the “Oh yeah, well…” type of posts that go on in this thread, and in countless other threads on foreign policy. Whenever someone says “everybody should have to have person/country/regime A” and then someone retorts “well you’re a hypocrite if you don’t hate person/country/regime B more, because they’re even worse”, they miss the point. The point is not to rank all human rights abusers on a sliding scale and make sure the level of hatred expressed by every person is adjusted accordingly. The point is to come up with a consistent foreign policy. So what’s being objected to is not the rankings of badness, but rather the fact that some people weep and wail to great extent over abuse of rights in one country, but with regard to another country they just pretend not to see it.
So Cuba is bad and China is worse. But it wouldn’t really matter if Cuba was the worse one. In anyways there’s no justification for giving one MFN status while embargoing the other, and thus you can’t take seriously anyone who claims that they want to punish Cuba for its human rights record but just sort of whistles and politely changes the subject when you bring up China. Likewise with Saddam and the House of Saud, the House of Saud may not be quite as evil but it’s still inconsistent to wage a full scale war to get rid of Saddam while simultaneously rolling over and begging the Sauds to be our friends.
“Justification”? No, the word you are looking for is “interest.” China has MFN status because it just too big and rich a market for American business to be deprived of. We’re friends with Saudi Arabia because we need a friend in the region. Cuba – would be a profitable market, but the prospect of letting our corporations make money there is not quite tempting enough, yet, to overcome the obstinate political opposition of the Miami Cubans and some unreconstructed old Cold Warriors.