Catholic Tradition

while undergoing catholic education, i was made to understand that the magisterium intereprets God’s work through traditional and scriptural bases. i read reams of discussions and debates concerning spoken traditions (passed from the apostles all the way to the bishops of today,) scripture-based, and popular traditions, both pre-europe (such as the sacrament of the mass,) and european (christmas.)

obviously, the vatican has long sorted out the issue of combining tradition and scriptures. it’s also a sneaky way to say “if you’re going to talk to me with ‘just’ a bible in your hand, don’t bother.”

obviously too, the same methodology might not apply to later christian denominations who, as organizations, began only in the last millenium (or last century.)

so, how does this unique postion of the catholic church sit with other christians?

During your Catholic education they never taught you about Martin Luther? It’s sure changed since I was in Catholic school.

Smart-ass remarks aside, Luther and a whole bunch of other Reformers believed that Scripture is the only source of God’s word, and that each person must interpret the Bible on his own. In other words, no Magisterium.

As a side note, this causes problems when one group reads the Bible and declares that abortion, gay marriage, baptism by immersion or whatever is absolutely sinful, and another group decides that it isn’t. That’s why you have a bunch of different groups which call themselves Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, etc., that don’t get along with each other.

ETA: If you’re asking whether other Christians accept the Pope (i.e., the Magisterium) as the final word, they don’t.

ah, well i wasn’t really planning on discussing all these dogmas (i don’t agree with a lot of them myself) derived from the magisterium’s alchemy of data. but good you mentioned luther because i’m curious as to how reformists decided on the infallibility of the bible.

the disagreement you speak of was not over Bible infallibility. Catholics see it just as infallible, as do Orthodox. But they still needed to somehow interpret the less clear parts of the text, right? So the conflict was over who gets the right to teach their opinions on the right interpretation of the infallible Bible. Who is the legit teaching authority and who should be told to shut up and obey that authority. (Rothbard elaborates on how Luther pushed for compulsory public schooling in Germany to get his particular interpretation taught to youth http://mises.org/daily/2226#7 search for ‘Luther’).

The bit about Catholic tradition has to do with Catholic church interpreting the Bible in light of the writings of Catholic theologians. Well, Protestants interpret the Bible in light of the writings of Protestant theologians as well as of some church fathers that Protestant theologians liked. This is no different from modern adherents of a particular school of thought (be it Austrian economics or Freudian psychoanlysis) studying the writings of those who came before them to learn the “state of the art” and be able to arrive at more meaningful and informed conclusions themselves.

i like that. but i suppose non-catholic researchers would have a bit of a problem in that the magisterium is not exactly a transparent office. and this is even assuming that have what can be considered a majority store of crucial documents.

and every organization has a “bleed out” system just to allow flexibility. the catholic church is infallible ex-cathedra and yet priests and even the pope may deliver homilies not strictly adherent to what the hierarchy prescribes. john paul II for instance, said he was satisfied as regards the validity of the evolution theory.

You can get the Straight Dope on all of this from Jack Chick, of course.

My great uncle was a Catholic Bishop in Dallas and I consider myself Catholic…PS…I love tradition more than anything else…

How far does believing in tradition get me?

“If” that was true, then why didn’t Jesus just actually write us a New Testament book?

Why didnt he have the Apostles do their writings while Jesus was still here so Jesus could proof read what they wrote?

Jesus was here 33 years and never wrote down a single thing? …yet he wanted us to follow, only, a book that he did not even write?
Jesus was well aware of Old Testament writings. There is no doubt that Jesus could have written a New Testament book if that is what he wanted us to be limited to believe.

Luther does not make any sense.

Pardon me… what’s infallible is not the RCC, it’s “the Pope, when speaking ex-cathedra”, but speaking ex-cathedra requires him to be speaking as Pontifex, in representation of the whole Church (good luck with that even if you take it to mean the RCC only) and inspired by the Holy Ghost. That does not mean that “the church is infallible”, nor that “any church officer is infallible”, nor that “any ordained priest is infallible”, nor that any of those OR the Pope are infallible all the time. The restrictions are HUGE - just for starters, once you accept that there is such a thing as a Holy Ghost, anybody inspired by It would be infallible, not just the Pope.

How a move on one Pope’s part to make himself and his heirs absolute monarchs at the time when absolute monarchy was heading to the dump in the Western Hemisphere, a move which was promptly curtailed by the bishops, always gets so thoroughly misinterpreted just keeps leaving me utterly beffudled.
And what’s evolution theory got to do with Tradition? :confused:

Only that tradition is more flexible than Scripture.

Not well. It is nonsense to consider human traditions to be equal with God’s revelation. I am not saying we should throw out tradition but if it contradicts the Bible it should, nor is it infallible.

You have no idea what the Catholic church teaches about the Bible. It is most definitely not infallible, and Catholics have long debated what certain passages mean and whether they some anything at all. We more than acknowledge that the text was degraded by time when first written down. We know it is fallible, because we are the ones who put it together in the first place (along the the other original bishoprics which now form the Coptic, Assyrian, and Orthodox churches).

Nor was the argument over who could interpret it. Luther was a respect theologian, even if we disagreed rather vehemently with his interpretation. The disagreement was his interpretation itself, and his (in our eyes) monomaniacal focus on the scripture. The scripture is not, and never was, the sum total of Christian teaching and knowledge. It was a tool for teaching Christians about the faith.

Actually, it is, in the Catholic view:

“Since, therefore, all that the inspired authors, or sacred writers, affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the sacred Scriptures.”

That’s from Dei Verbum, the authoritative Vatican II teaching on scripture. But of course the tradition of inerrancy is much older than that. It goes back to the early fathers.

What the Catholic church doesn’t teach is that scripture when read by the indivdual in a simplistic and literal way is true.

Wow, you all are actually going to try and figure out what goes through the heads of people that bow to wafers (hope they’re saltines, yummy), pray to mythological deities whom they’ve changed the names of (to fool the innocent :smiley: ), and think that the guy in the biggest fish-hat (hopefully with monstrance in hand) gets his orders directly from the creator himself? :dubious: Have fun guys, no need to go the circus after watching this parade. :rolleyes:

Bosstrain, you’re threadshitting. If you’re going to make sarcastic comment and not contribute to the discussion, you’re better off not posting in this thread.

In the late 1960s, after VII took temporary control, it was, “Yeah, most of the 99 Theses we fixed centuries ago.” It’s why we are called, “Catholicism Lite.” Cripes, I knew the liturgy while ignoring much of what the Pope said.

Except when JPII made that sermon in Havana calling the Santeria back home, which was awesome. He (as he was Polish) and we have nothing against chicken guts, but it’s because the livers (etc) are so good when breaded and deep fried. Less useful as augurs.

dupe

It does all boil down to the fact that it is human beings who decide what is God’s word and what is not,of course the psalmist says all are gods and sons of god , so in that case everthing is god’s word, or actions!!

Humans decided that it was of God’s doing…God did not say anything,write anything etc.. It is the word only of humans that say it was God’s word or actions.

Catholics and Orthodox note a different point.
Tradition preceded scripture. Sticking strictly to the New Testament, (because the dates are easier to manage in discussion, but the same situation applies to the Hebrew Scriptures), there was no scripture, at all, prior to the fifties, when Paul began writing his epistles to various communities. Even when he wrote his letters, they were hardly recognized throughout every Christian community as “scripture.” First they had to be copied and sent out from the original locations to which they were sent. Then, time had to pass in which they were collected together. None of the canonical Gospels could have been in circulation prior to the seventies, (or even much later). The same impediments of not having been written and not being distributed to all Christians applies to all the other writings, as well.

Thus, there could not have been a Christian Scripture for a minimum of twenty years follow the departure of Jesus. Looking at the historical record, it actually seems that the gathering of such writings by Marcion just before 150, (in which he overtly excluded any writing associated with the Jewish people), was the first formal effort to create a canon, so we are really talking about a church that did not have a New Testament for well over 100 years.

During that period, it was the tradition of the teachings that informed Christianity. In fact, the standard by which various works were admitted to the canon was based on their adherence to the understanding of tradition held by the church in that period.

There are any number of objections one might raise concerning the selection, inclusion, and exclusion of various works as declared by the Catholic or Orthodox leaders. It is also possible to make the argument that only those portions of tradition that actually got recorded in what we now call scripture are valid. However, one cannot legitimately claim that the church has always had scripture to preach and explain the words of Jesus. For a significant period of time, the church grew and developed without any such scripture even existing. It is the Catholic and Orthodox position that they are maintaining the tradition that has always been a part of the church. If tradition is contradicted by scripture, it cannot be acceptable, but those wrinkles were ironed out long ago and from the perspective of the Catholics and Orthodox, there are no longer any contradictions. (On some points, obviously, various Protestants and others disagree, but the Catholics and Orthodox would tend to say that the interpretation (of either scripture or tradition) of the objectors is in error.)

As to tradition not being infallible, we could turn that around and note that scripture, arising from fallible tradition, is also fallible. That would hardly be a Catholic or Orthodox position, but it is the natural conclusion of rejecting tradition as fallible.