Thanks. That elaboration helps me out.
If you don’t mind me asking, what was the point of this? I think pretty much every Protestant on this site is feircely embarrassed by, and also fiercely disagrees with, the vast bulk of Mr. Jack T. Chick’s opinions.
Thanks
Chris
My understanding was NOT that catholics are taught that “they have to be good”, but rather that they have to understand that they are sinners and be truly repentent for their sins. You know, the whole go to confession, say some Hail Mary’s thing.
McStain wrote:
Even the one about Dungeons & Dragons? :eek:
While I’m sure most of the Protestants here put Jack Chick in the same category as, say, Fred Phelps or Pat Robertson, there are a few (cough Wildest Bill cough) who probably don’t feel that Chick Tracts are all that far off the mark.
ShrekLookAlike wrote:
Not quite. You’re forgetting about Purgatory.
According to Catholic doctrine (and the doctrines of some Protestant churches such as the Anglican and Episcopalian, for that matter), Purgatory is the netherworld realm you go to after you die to get purged of all your sins. Purgatory is supposed to be every bit as nasty as Hell; the only difference is that your stay in Purgatory is temporary. The more sins you’ve committed while you’re alive, the longer you have to stay in Purgatory before all your sins will have been purged, afterwhich you’ll finally be allowed to enter Heaven.
Sure, repenting of your sins, going to confession, saying Hail Mary’s, etc., can reduce the length of your sentence in Purgatory for a particular sin, but it won’t completely eliminate it (AFAIK).
Note that mortal sins, if not atoned for while you’re still alive, are so grievous that no length of time in Purgatory is sufficent to “cleanse” them. An unatoned mortal sin condemns you to Hell.
As regards this Chick character,
actually the whole “born again” brigade are a good example of the kind of thing I was talking about.
I meet them occasionally, either on the street or coming to my door. Their earnestness is scary.
Its a short hop from earnestness to extremism.
All the “born again” mob are, I understand, Protestant. This is part of the reason why I equated the Protestant style of faith with the Taliban style of faith.
I mean no offence to Protestants. I understand that the vast majority are not in favour of this kind of extremism. I am aware that we should all love each other and I’m not trying to cause divisiveness.
I’m just calling it as I see it.
I was trying to make the point that this type of faith seems to lead to extremism among certain groups.
I know that evil things have been done in the name of Catholicism in the past but, looking around the world today, I don’t seem to see any extremist Catholics. But I see plenty of extremist Protestants and plenty of extremist Muslims.
In fact, you could almost make a list:
Religions with a fundamentalist wing
Protestantism
Islam
Religions without a fundamentalist wing
Catholicism
Buddhism
Hinduism
Therefore, Im wondering what connects Protestantism and Islam.
I’ve come to the conclusion that its the type of faith involved. The “all or nothing” aspect to it.
I’m probably not explaining this very well, I just have to hope you get my general meaning.
OK, Tracer, I’m not a Catholic, but I did go to a Catholic school, and got 8 years of Theology from that school. So I’m treading into somewhat unfamiliar waters, but I think you’re being a little unfair to the Catholic position.
First of all, there’s no way Purgatory can be as bad as hell. Hell is a complete estrangement from God’s love, which, obviously, is a complete estrangement from everythign good. Purgatory, although our priests did not dwell on it, is simply a gigantic purification section of eternity, where your sins are burned away. Now, I wouldn’t want to suffer the pains of purgatory for any time, but the simple knowledge that the pains of purgatory end make it a significantly better place than eternal Hell. I’m pretty sure you’re right about shortening your time in hell, but I do believe that a Papal indulgence (bought or not) gets you into heaven straight away.
And, although I’m uncertain about this, I do believe that all that one needs, to atone for a mortal sin while close to death, is repentance. Obviously, confession is preferable, but if you truly regret your transgression, that’s enough.
Pseudo-Catholically,
Chris.
McStain wrote:
From http://www.religioustolerance.org/purgatory.htm:
“St. Thomas Aquinas quotes St. Augustine as saying that ‘This fire of Purgatory will be more severe than any pain that can be felt, seen or conceived in this world.’ Aquinas agrees with St. Augustine. There will be two types of pain in Purgatory. They feel a keen sense of loss because they will not be in the presence of God while they remain in Purgatory. They will also feel the ‘punishment by corporeal fire.’ The former is an overwhelming pain because the souls there will deeply long to be with God. The thermally induced pain would also be severe because it would be inflicted on the soul itself – there are no bodies in Purgatory. ‘Therefore it follows that the pain of Purgatory, both of loss and of sense, surpasses all the pains of this life.’ The Catholic Encyclopedia mentions that St. Bonaventure thought: ‘that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life.’”
Although, apparently, Church doctrine is silent on the subject of just how painful Purgatory is, I’ve read one on-line and well-thought-out speculations by a particular Catholics (no cite right now, sorry). He said that the fires of Purgatory are probably every bit as painful as the fires of Hell. Even if these are temporary, Purgatory can supposedly last for many years, or even centuries. And worst of all, there is a chance, according to that same on-line speculation I read, that the souls in Purgatory will not be able to tell that they are in Purgatory and not in Hell, and thus will not know if their torment is ever going to end!
Practicing Catholic speaking. I was taught (no cite available – family tradition – though I can check my sources) that the souls in Purgatory are the second-happiest souls in creation, as they know they are going to heaven. (The happiest souls being those already in heaven, and the third-happiest being living souls.) This makes sense to me, as presumably the souls have already been judged deserving of Purgatory, and presumably the souls were conscious of judgment. Also, they should know were they are because: 1) hey, no demons! and 2) they are aware of the prayers of the living.
I asked a friend of mine for a cite for my claim about the happiness of the souls in Purgatory and she says: