Let's have it out ... Faith v. Good Works

Great Debates
1

Let’s ignore all the Papist claptrap of Mary veneration and gaudy songs and robes. To my mind, the real beef of Protestants with Roman Catholicism is the faith v. good works necessity for salvation.

(Disclaimers: First, this thread was inspired by the fundamentalist criticism of Islam mentioned in the OP here. It made it apparent to me that the Protestant dismissal of good works as a means of salvation is not limited to Catholics. Second, I am an atheist lapsed Catholic. Where you think I have a dog in this fight is up to your own interpretation.)

OK, to my semi-learned mind, the real beef that Protestants have with “good works” is the idea that some people may be trying to essentially buy their way into Heaven - “Yah, I really wasn’t sure about your existence, JC, but look! I fed 500 starving Ethiopians! I’m in, right?” I see this as an exaggerated, but valid criticism. The concept of indulgences does still exist in the Roman Catholic Church, though much abridged and subject to more rigorous scrutiny.

OK, the concept of good works is open to abuse. But –

First, the RCC has acknowledged that good works alone is not sufficient to get one into Heaven - faith is vital and indeed more important. (If you want a cite, this was explicitly proclaimed by the Vatican within the past year as part of ongoing ecumenical efforts. I will do a Google search, if demanded).

Second, and more to my point, isn’t the “faith alone” viewpoint just as open to abuse as the “good works” POV? Is the “yeah, sure, you’re starving, but I’ve accepted JC as my personal Lord and Saviour, so I don’t need to do anything for you,” POV just as offensive (if not more so) than the “I’m not sure if God exists, but to cover my bets I’ll toss a few grand to the poor” POV?

Sua

P.S. Yes, I know that this OP utterly ignores the nuance that is the “faith v. good works” debate. I’m only presenting my impressions from the viewpoint of a relatively educated respectful non-believer. Deal with it. :slight_smile:

2

I think the Catholic viewpoint is that if you truly have faith, then good works follow.

3

With only 3 minutes left in this monumental battle, Faith needs to put together a really great round to have any chance of defeating Good Works. Good Works came into this match an overwhelming favorite, but Faith has put up quite a battle this evening. After a knockdown in the 5th, Faith got off to a great start to the next 3 rounds, but Good Works had another knockdown in the 10th. It looks like Faith is going to need a knockout this round to claim the title…

4

Maybe this is a GQ, but this seems to be the place to ask, anyway.

What, precisely, is a work. My thought has always been feeding the hungry, caring for the sick and other traditional charitable activities.

But I recently read Acts and Romans, and it looks to me that when Paul is talking about works, he’s simply talking about the old Jewish laws. That works are things like keeping kosher, getting circumcized, etc.

Am I misreading this thing?

5

Actually I think this would be the protestant viewpoint. The catholic viewpoint would be that faith is just the start, you need to put that faith into action every day.

Catholics believe that faith doesn’t inevitably lead to good works. This is why they make a point of saying that good works are necessary, they can’t just be taken for granted once you have faith.

Protestants believe that if you truly have faith then good works will naturally follow. If you do not do good works then you mustn’t have faith.

6

http://www.catholic.com answers a lot of questions on catholic belief. From a page on that site is this quote:

7

Speaking as another now-atheist, former Catholic, I remember that good works were part of the condition to get into heaven. The Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy are offered as specific good deeds that one should practice (list below). The list was part of the catechism that we memorized.

The works are to be performed from compassion and to alleviate suffering, not as a method of buying one’s way into heaven. As you can see from the list, there are many that can be performed without monetary expenditure.

The corporal works of mercy:
To feed the hungry;
To give drink to the thirsty;
To clothe the naked;
To harbour the harbourless;
To visit the sick;
To ransom the captive;
To bury the dead.

The spiritual works of mercy:
To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.

I remember something about ‘visiting the imprisoned’ but that must have been part of yet another list.

8

The scorn in your heart for the beggar who asks you for your penny weighs ten thousand times as heavily as the silver dollar you give him in your public good works. The sound of your voice, as you speak your righteous admonition of the sins of others is overwhelmed by the whispered prayer they have spoken to the Lord, asking that He lift them up from their bondage to the flesh.

The works that bring you to the Lord are those which guide your spirit to love. It is that love which will save you, not a credit account in the Eternal Bank of Hope Springs. Ten thousand gifts given to the poor mean nothing, but a moment holding a weeping wretch in the quiet of his final hour in sinful misery can lift your heart out of the mire of self righteousness. To be loved, you must be willing to love. As you are a sinner, so then are the souls of sinners in your care, as well.

Reach out to every soul you meet with love. Pretend each one is the Lord Himself; come to you in quiet, and without grandeur. One day, it will be.

There is no dichotomy between faith and works. Have faith. In celebration of your faith, do works. If there is a measurement of either, you will fall short of the Glory of God. Don’t worry. It’s about love.

Tris

“The Way of Heaven is to benefit others and not to injure.
The Way of the sage is to act but not to compete.” ~ Lao-tzu ~

9

This has come up on this board before. Ultimately the faith v. works debate is a distinction without a difference (speaking as a Protestant). Protestants have real differences with the Roman Catholic Church, but this isn’t one of them. Luther listed all of them at one time.

Protestants do not have the intercession of a priest between them and God. Protestants confess directly to God and receive absolution directly from God rather than confessing to a priest. Offhand, I cannot think of a more important difference between the two branches of Christianity. Protestants experience this as a personal relationship with Jesus.

10

This was another thread that discussed this recently.

11

I’ve spoken to this question recently in this post and this post.

Effectively, Christian doctrine, Catholic or Protestant, holds that one is saved by the grace of God mediated through Jesus Christ. One accepts that grace in faith, and commits oneself to the Triune God. Having done so, one is expected to follow His commandments, which emphatically include the “doing of good works.” Apropos quotes from Jesus:

Probably sinful of me, but I do look forward to seeing the expressions on a few evangelists that have totally ignored this message and condemned andygirl, Muslim Guy, and a few dozen others I could name, because they didn’t buy into the evangelists’ theology, at that Day. :slight_smile:

12

Polycarp
I agree with you 100%. It always bothered me when the hard core fundamentalist types would say the only way into heaven was accepting J.C. regardless of your sins.

I always asked if Hitler accepted J.C. at the last moments would he be in Heaven but if a Hindu man spent his life helping others and in general without knowing it followed many of the christian laws without being christian he would go to hell. after a long pause they would say yes.

I have to say if that were the case maybe the company in Hell would have been preferable, but I choose to believe my God would be just in those decisions regarding the afterlife and would look beyond who merely paid him lip service and who did his works without knowing his name.

13

kingpevin, I think the Protestant retort to your point would be to say that mere “lip service” won’t get anyone into heaven. A conversion must be a genuine, sincere spiritual experience; merely saying the words won’t get you anywhere.

14

To me the concept of faith without good works is simply untenable. What use is faith without the commision of worthy deeds? Furthermore, do not good deeds exemplify faith in its finest form? The forbearance of personal success for the gain of others, the contribution at personal expense towards the betterments of your fellow man. What use is faith if not accompanied, if not preceded by these acts?

As a devout agnostic, I have only my own good deeds to reflect upon. My faith is in the inate goodness of mankind and there is the limit of my scope. I cannot bring myself to imagine a Lord or God who would accept a person of faith who was entirely lacking in good deeds.

Faith is but windowdressing for the real merchandise of good works. If one is performed the other is merely a confirmation of the same. Good deeds are critical to the enlightenment of the soul. Faith, as exhibited by the Taleban, is no guarantor of decency. I have said many times in the past and will repeat again now;

“If I am to be thrown into a lake of fire solely because I did not accept some arbitrary figure of religiosity in favor of devoting my life to the uplifting and betterment of others, I will cheerfully accept that fate. I shall have no desire to share in a heaven of such shallow virtue.”

15

Zenster, you beat me to it. Well said, my sentiments exactly.

If you lead a good life, helping others and bettering the world and race as a whole, I couldn’t think of any God as described by any religion that would scorn you, whether or not you had “faith” in that particular God. Doing good is an expression of faith, regardless of cultural idiosyncrasies. Faith in humanity if not in God.

This all falls apart, of course, if God is a nutball- which many evangelicals Cough Jack Chick Cough make him out to be. But that is a subject for another thread.

16

Dietrich Bonhoeffer worked out a compromise with his theological discussion of cheap grace vs. costly grace–i.e. that there is no true partaking of grace without discipleship.

The Epistle of James also speaks against drawing a sharp dichotomy between faith and works. (perhaps this is why Martin Luther believed this book should never have become part of the canon…but the modern fundamentalist approach is simply to ignore this epistle altogether)

In the Old Testament, the notion of repentance (t’shuvah) was thought of as a “turning away” from the path of iniquity–not just a change in doctrinal belief, but more fundamentally, a change in one’s way of living. Repentance could occur on an individual or communal level, but the basic idea was a “turning away”.

17

Thank you so much for your kind words, Masamune. Please allow me to officially welcome you to these boards. I look forward to some of your own posts.

18

I’d have to say good works goes over faith. Like zenster said, what use is faith without good works? I always thought it would be ridiculous if you could get into heavan without at least being nice.

19

You are correct Philosophocles. In Judaism, t’shuvah has several components, one of which is called azivas ha-cheit, (literally: leaving the sin) where you determine not to do that sin again.

Zev Steinhardt

20

He who believes in me shall never die, but shall have life everlasting.
That is the promise of putting faith in God and following Jesus. Now, what does that mean in light of the fact that our bodies do in fact die without exception? It means that we are born anew into a life that has an everlasting quality, if you believe and follow. There are great rewards in serving those in need as Jesus did.