CDR / CDRW format question

Several months ago, I bought a CDR deck for my stereo system. I have a bunch of really old albums that’ll never be re-released on CD and it’s getting hard to find cartridges for my turntable. I got it home, hooked it up and plunked in a brand-new, fresh from the spindle CDRW. Didn’t work and the message code I got implied that no CDR was detected. “Hmmm…” thinks I, “maybe it doesn’t understand CDRWs”, and tried a CDR. It still wasn’t detected.

I returned the machine to electronics superstore which shall remain unnamed (let’s call it CircuitC or CC for convienience). The salesthing was a dolt (big surprise) who said I’d hooked it up wrong and the CDR Deck wasn’t getting any audio input (despite the No CDR detected message). Nope. Tried an old tape deck using the same config, worked fine. He finally exchanged the unit.

I tried again with the same non-results. I eventually got a refund on the unit (after another debate with the salesthing).

Anyway, I was recently in CC again. There, next to the CDR decks, were piles of special, vastly overpriced CDRs. They had a hyphenated name (like CDR-M, but I don’t remember the letter used). Anyway, a useful saleswoman told me that CDRs for CDR Decks had to have a special formatting done to them to work, which is why none of my previous attempts worked.

Now that I’ve got all the build-up done: Anyone know
A) What these “specially formatted” CDRs are called?
B) How the disks differ from normal CDRs (is it just formatting, or is there some sort of hardware difference or hardware protection?)
C) How (or if) I can format my inexpensive, but quite workable computer CDRs instead of being gouged for these horribly overpriced ones?

One aside, yes, I know I can record on my PC’s CDR. It’s not really an option for me.

Thanks!

Fenris

Well, he’s right about you needing music CD-Rs, but I’m not sure if it’s for formatting…could be that the deck CD-Rs can’t write lead-ins. Not sure…I do believe they have a higher reflectivity than most normal CD-Rs, which could explain why the writer didn’t think there was a blank in. Glad I don’t have to use the expensive ones…I like my 50 spindle of 12x Imations for 30 bucks.

The standalone CDR units that connect like a typical stereo component require Audio CDs (otherwise known as Music CDs). IIRC, the difference is that the Audio CDs have a special code on them allowing them to be properly burned with the unit. I believe the recording industry (I don’t know specifically which group) gets a percentage on the sale of an Audio CD.

basically it is that they have paid a tax, like blank cassettes do, to compensate the artists for lost sales. That’s pretty much it.

I just got a DVD player (actually my second one). I had to take a burnt CD-R (with a VCD Movie on it) with me to the stores and tested the units with the burnt copy to see if it would accept the media.

I have done this with burnt music CDs with my car as well, I put the CD in the stereo before I even thought about getting it. Silly, I know, but I have a LOT of burnt… items.

CandyMan

Did you remember to close (write-protect) the CDR when you recorded it? “Close Session” and “Close Disk” are not the same thing. Audio CDs need to be closed completely to work in an audio cd player.

And unless it specifically says it was designed to read CD-RWs, it doesn’t. Even most CDROM drives won’t read them without special software because they are written in a different format called UDF. From Adaptec’s website:

Regarding audio and CDRW, I haven’t tried to record audio on CDRW’s because the instructions that came with my CD burner said that they could not be read by most car and home CD players.
As far as recording on CDR’s, you don’t require anything special if you use a CD burner connected to your PC. I have burned many using the $50 a hundred data CDR’s. They play fine in my Walkman, car, and Sony home deck.
Why is that not an option for you?

Don’t know what happens if you use a non-Pc burner.

Diver, as the OP stated, he’s trying to transfer records to CD. This is not an easy task with your standard PC- you’d have to get a decent soundcard, you’d probably need some sort of editing software (unless you wanted to record w/ Windows Sound Recorder), you’d have to be around when the song ended so that it didn’t keep recording til you ran out of hard disk space, etc… Not to mention the various headaches with the installation of a CDR drive.

Fenris, is Minidisc a viable option for you? A good portable recorder is $200, the ATRAC format cleans up a lot of hisses and pops from records, the media is now fairly cheap (approx $2), and you can take it with you or hook it up to your receiver. I’ve been archiving a lot of my old live show bootlegs this way. Just a suggestion.

Joe_Cool, the reason CD-RW doesn’t work in many drives is not the file format, but the physical propeties of the disc. CD-RW uses a phase-changing crystalline layer that has much lower optical contrast than either the pits on a pressed CD or the “burned” areas on a CDR. Unless your drive has a more powerful laser and detector (MultiRead compatible) you won’t be able to use them.

UDF is simply an alternative file system to the ubiquitous ISO 9660; its chief advantage is that it is a packet-written system. Thus, with UDF writing software, you can treat a CD-RW or CDR like a high-capacity floppy; it will have a drive letter and doesn’t need to be run through a regular disc mastering process.

Newer computers don’t have any trouble reading it (it’s the same file system used on DVDs) and an older Win 95 / NT4 box will read it with appropriate drivers. Personally, I loathe the format- it takes a great deal of overhead and is not truly universal; I can’t read a UDF disc in DOS, for example.

This is one of those threads where everybody is answering a different question because nobody bothers to read the OP carefully. People often do not answer the question that was asked but the question they have an answer for.

Very well then. Try howthingswork.com search for ‘audio cd’

Funny, I thought the OP was answered.

A) What these “specially formatted” CDRs are called?

“Music” or “Audio” CDs.

B) How the disks differ from normal CDRs (is it just formatting, or is there some sort of hardware difference or hardware protection?)

Encoding on the recorder so that it will only recognize the more expensive Audio CDs. They’re more expensive because of recording industry kickbacks.

C) How (or if) I can format my inexpensive, but quite workable computer CDRs instead of being gouged for these horribly overpriced ones?

By using a computer CD burner. There are much pricier ways though…

I may not have been clear in my original post.

I know I can burn CDs on my computer. I have editing software and have done so in the past. However, dealing with 50-65 year old records (including a few vintage 78’s) simply isn’t easy to do on my computer. To do it, I’d have to get 50-70 feet of cable (which’ll degrade the sound) and route the signal through my sound card (OK for games, but not for archival audio recording).

Currently, I’ve borrowed a portable DAT recorder from my dad. I’m recording the albums onto the DAT which I’m then copying to the HDD (through the mediocre sound card), editing the resultant file and burning. It’s taking many hours per album and giving a barely acceptable result.

Regarding the Mini-disk idea…I don’t know…I really wanted to be able to listen to some of these old records in my car. It’s a thought though.

Regarding the “howthingswork.com” site. I tried the specific search suggested and got a bunch of “How CDs work”, “What happens if I touch a CD”, “How to burn CDs on your computer” and “Why do CDs have that pretty rainbow pattern” results, and a bunch of good links but nothing that answered my specific issue. Was there a particular page?

As an aside, CDRW’s aren’t the issue. All these decks will work with CDRs and CDRWs but only the gawdawful expensive ones (they look identical to the original.)

If I’m unclear on what kind of device I’m talking about, I’m going to post a link. I’m not sure this is ok. If not, apologies in advance, Manny. CDR Stereo Deck(note, this specific model isn’t the one I’m looking at, but it’s similar)

The specific questions I’m asking about are:
#1) Is there a physical difference between Computer CDRs and “Audio” CDRs or is it just a formatting issue? I can’t find any hard info one way or the other, although some of the links I got from howthingswork.com are suggesting that there’s a “bit” that’s set in the “Audio” CDRs. The phrase SCMS(Serial Copy Management System)has also shown up.

#2) If it is a software thing, does anyone know if Computer CDRs can be manually formatted to mimic “Audio” CDRs? If so, how?

Man, I wish someone would make these CDR decks available for rental. But if I’m paying $400 for a deck, I really’d rather not pay $4-6 bucks per disk to back up music that I already own.

Thanks for the help so far!

Fenris

Fenris your questions have already been answered in this thread and you missed them on account of the clutter.

#1) Is there a physical difference between Computer CDRs and “Audio” CDRs

Yes, the ones you can use to record on your audio set have paid a tax that the others have not and they are marked as such. Your machine will not record to those that are not marked as such.

#2) If it is a software thing, does anyone know if Computer CDRs can be manually formatted to mimic “Audio” CDRs?

I do not know how to do this but I am sure some hacker would know how to make your machine override the protection. This is illegal and I doubt the mods will let us discuss it here.

Why you would EVER give up your LPs is beyond me, but if you decide to dump em, let me know. I might be willing to take some off your hands.

Anyway, a friend of mine had the same problem recording his LPs to a Panasonic (I think) 2xCD dubbing deck. They wouldn’t record off of the turntable, but they worked fine off of the tape deck. So he made tapes of his LPs on nice metal bias cassettes, and then used the cassettes to burn the CDs. The loss of fidelity to the tape is pretty negligible, considering the snap, crackle, and pops that your probably gonna get from the LPs. Anyway, you said the machine worked off of the tape deck. Spend the 20 bucks and get new heads put on it, if it’s REALLY a peice of crap. Actually, it doesn’t sound like your sound card is all that hot shit anyway.

Yeah, it’s a pain in the ass, but better than dealing with the animatronic salesbots. Good luck.

“take some off (my) hands”, huh? Nice try :wink: (kidding!).

I’m not giving 'em up, but I want “archival” copies. And cartridges are getting harder to find and I want to be prepared if cartridges ever go the way of the reel-to-reel.

Fenris

I work for a music store [Ironic, eh?]. We have special blank cd’s which are called audio ONLY cd’s. They are not data cds. Not sure how they compare to regular cd’s but I think that it has to do with the reflectivity coatings, which are specially read by your music cd player.

Handy, as has been explained in this thread already several times, they just have a certain code recorded which signals them as having paid the tax.

A friend of mine has gotten around this by doing the original recording on a CDRW audio disc (I did not know they existed) then copying to a regular CDR on his PC. That way he only needs one of the expensive audio discs which can be used over and over.

Ticker, that solution (first writing to CD-RW) is ingenious. Fenris, that’s probably the best solution if you don’t want to pay inflated audio CD-R prices. If you can’t find them locally, buy.com sells them for $5.00 each.

Alternatives are:

Memory Media sells audio CD-Rs in bulk for under $1.50 each; see http://www.memorymedia.com. Other places probably have them as well.

Buy a high quality soundcard (such as a Turtle Beach (http://www.turtlebeach.com)) for your computer and move it to where your stereo system is located.

However, since your CD Recorder already has a high quality D/A converter, I think Ticker’s solution is the best.