Re #1: Naturally, the larger breed dogs have a greater ability to kill than 30 lb beagles. But Beagles have done plenty of damage to plenty of people and they are among the worst “human aggressive” breeds. Also score worse than pit breeds on temperament tests. http://www.atts.org/stats1.html But I guess ripping a kid’s face to shreds doesn’t count in your book as something to worry about.
Re #2: Oh really? I thought one of your earlier posts said something about pits being the scum of the earth and that not enough of them have been destroyed. Oh really … I have nothing to worry about if my dog isn’t biting anyone? Have you ever heard of BSL? My dog can be seized from house & euthanized just because of how he looks … doesn’t matter whether he’s shown aggression or not.
Re #3: Well written “dangerous dog” laws, proper law enforcement, and proactive education should take care of the “sick & tired” crowd. Unfortunately it’s just easier to blame pit bulls. Besides, fatal dog attacks & maulings are extremely rare given that we have 300 mill people and 70 mill dogs in the US … and usually the result of a perfect storm of negligent or foolish acts by both owners & victims.
Re #4: Nothing to worry about, eh? 40 miles south of my home is a major city that will flat out seize & euthanize my pet if kept in city limits. Or what about the discrimination we face from landlords and insurance companies … nothing to worry about, right. And when all the pit bulls & rotts are eradicated, who will HamHawk be crying about next … retrievers? nordic/spitz breeds? st. bernards? They’ve all killed, but I guess 4 deaths per year from nordic breeds is okay but 8 from pit bulls is not? Maybe when your dog makes the BSL list, you’ll reconsider.
Re #5: Look at me with a straight face and tell me you don’t luv seeing those pitties at the top of the CDC list. Makes you feel good about all those wild pit bull notions rolling around in your head.
Re #6: No, I really don’t. There are clearly other breeds with a greater propensity to bite humans than pits. Most pits today are not genetically geared for fighting, but even the ones that are have low or no human aggressive tendancies. Read my earlier post about the Vick dogs. Study the history of the breed and you’ll discover that human aggressive pits were largely culled out of the breeding lines for the safety of the pit handlers … but maybe it’s not convenient for you recognize that part of the breed’s genetic history (btw, I’m not talking about pits that were intentionally bred with human aggressive breeds to create mean dogs).
They actually do attack people in large numbers, though as we have seen these statistics are equally suspect. Surely you can see that your failure to view them as dangerous dogs has something to do with your perception of them as cute, cuddly puppy-dogs, despite the fact that, as mercedes1 has cited, they are well-known to be “bitey” dogs. Australian Cattle Dogs and American Cockers too are some of the allegedly top-ranked bite dogs in the US… but you sure don’t think of them as “dangerous dogs”, do you? Why do you suppose that is? Do you think when a cocker spaniel attacks it’s reported in every major news outlet across the country?
Oh. Okay, I suppose your desire to see them all killed is supposed to be less offensive to me?
Uh… really? You really think it doesn’t matter if every one of the reports of “pit bull” maulings that make up the stats you’re so in love with are false? Are you really, honestly, right here in print saying that you believe it doesn’t matter whether the stats you’re citing are correct or not, that this has no connection to whether or not pit bulls are truly dangerous dogs?
…Do you understand, even remotely, what an astoundingly ignorant thing that is to say?
Really? Then perhaps it’s time to consider comprehensive, behaviorally-focused dangerous dog legislation that applies to all breeds and types equally, and stop imagining that only stocky, short-coated, broad-headed dogs are vicious.
Ah, there again is where you’re wrong. It’s not one breed that impersonates pit bulls, it’s many. Many breeds and mixes look just like “pit bulls”.
If you got bit by this dog, what would you tell the cops? This dog? What about this one? How about this guy?
I am willing to bet that in every one of those cases, you would report the bite as having been perpetrated by a pit bull. In every case, you’d be wrong.
Can you see why that sort of false reporting skews the statistics?
Can you see why those skewed statistics are also skewing your perception of pit bulls as inordinately dangerous dogs?
[following links are mostly all PDFs]
Actually, frequentlytheydo. Some are so disgustingly obvious about it as to use “pit bull” in the headlines and then go on to name the real breed later in the body of the article, as with those last two examples.
In this story, the dog was reported as a pit bull. The news outlet ran photos of the dogs in question, which were Labrador Retrievers. When people complained, the photos were pulled and the story continued to run as a “pit bull mauling” story.
Here an attacking dog was reported as a pit bull. It turns out the dog was a Catahoula Leopard Dog.
Here a dog killed a woman and was first reported as a “hulking pit bull”. The next day it was a bullmastiff.
Remember that baby that got its toes eaten off by a six-week-old pit bull puppy? Turns out it was a ferret, not the puppy.
Remember that French lady that had her face ripped off and later received a face transplant? Do you remember what breed of dog did it? Probably not, since very few reports included the dog’s breed. Had it been a pit bull, the breed would have been featured prominently in every headline.
All of these dogs were bred and in fact created to kill:
American Foxhound, Anglo-Français de Petite Vénerie, Grand Anglo-Français Tricolore, Grand anglo-français blanc et orange, Grand anglo-français blanc et noir, Ariegeois, Artois Hound, Austrian black and tan hound, Basset Bleu de Gascogne, Basset Fauve de Bretagne, Basset Hound, Beagle, Beagle-Harrier, Berner Laufhund, Brachet, Catahoula Leopard Hound, Black and Tan Coonhound, Redbone Coonhound, Bluetick Coonhound, English Coonhound (Redtick Coonhound), Treeing Walker Coonhound, Plott Hound, Dachshund, Drever, Dunker, English Foxhound, Finnish Hound, Foxhound, Français tricolore, Français blanc et noir, Français blanc et orange, Gascon Saintongeois, Grand Basset Griffon Vendeen, Grand Bleu de Gascogne, Hamiltonstovare, Hanover Hound, Harrier, Hungarian hound, Kerry Beagle, Kritikos Ichnilatis (Cretan Hound), Norwegian Elkhound, Norwegian Lundehund, Otterhound, Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen, Polish Hound (pl.Ogar Polski ), Polish Scenthound (pl.Gonczy Polski ), Porcelaine, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Segugio Italiano, Serbian Hound, Serbian Tricolour Hound, Schweizer Laufhund, Slovensky Kopov (Slovakian Hound), Westphalian Dachsbracke, Afghan Hound, Azawakh, Borzoi, Chart Polski (Polish Greyhound), Galgo Español (Spanish Greyhound), Greyhound, Hortaya Borzaya, Irish Wolfhound, Italian Greyhound, Magyar Agar (Hungarian Greyhound), Saluki (Persian Greyhound), Scottish Deerhound, Sloughi, Tazy, Tasmin, Whippet, Blackmouth Cur, Blue Lacy, Catahoula Cur, Mountain Cur, Mountain Cur, Stephens Cur, Treeing Cur, Lakeland Terrier, Patterdale Terrier, Border Terrier, Jagdterrier, Atlas Terrier, Brazilian Terrier, Chilean Fox Terrier, Fox Terrier (Smooth), Fox Terrier (Wire), Rat Terrier, Ratonero Bodeguero Andaluz, Podenco Canario, Podenco Ibicenco, Podenco Andaluz, Airedale Terrier, Australian Terrier, Bedlington Terrier, Bull Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Dandie Dinmont Terrier, Glen of Imaal Terrier, Irish Terrier, Kerry Blue Terrier, Manchester Terrier, Miniature Bull Terrier, Scottish Terrier , Sealyham Terrier, Norfolk Terrier, Norwich Terrier, Skye Terrier, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier, Welsh Terrier
Why do you believe these dogs, bred to kill all manner of animals large and small, are less dangerous than a dog bred to kill another dog?
It’s not a strength issue, Rhodesian Ridgebacks were bred to hunt lions, cur dogs for wild boar. It’s not a size issue, Irish Wolfhounds and Borzoi are enormous dogs, bred to hunt wolves. It’s not a drive issue, coonhounds and foxhounds will run quarry until they fall down dead on the trail. So what is it?
Why do you think a dog bred to kill another dog is less dangerous than a dog bred to bite or kill people?
Why do you think a dog bred to kill another dog is more dangerous than a dog bred to bite or kill people?
Such breeds include a large cross-section of working- and molossoid breeds, including Mastiffs, German Shepherd Dogs and Dobies, both of last two you’ve mentioned you can easily identify as distinct from those homicidal maniacs, the pit bull.
So hamhawk, tell me, why do you think a dog bred to kill another dog is more inherently dangerous than a dog bred and in fact created to hunt, bite, or kill people?
And, not to keep spamming the thread, but I believe I was unfairly aggressive here.
My point is that it does really matter what breed it gets listed under. Say there are fifteen fatal dog attacks per year… if any significant percentage of them get reported as “pit bulls” when they were really “mixed breed of indeterminate origin”, or any of the commonly mis-identified breeds, then it leads to a strong misperception about the root cause of dog bite events. People start to think “only pit bulls are dangerous”. In reality, any dog can bite. Any dogcan kill.
Also, consider this: when an attack occurs involving a dog alleged to be a pit bull, the headlines often read like “Killer Pit Bulls Rip Granny to Shreds”, because sensationalism sells. Why don’t you think they headlined the article on the Pomeranian: “Killer Dog Rips Baby to Shreds”? Do you think there’s a reason why attacks involving other breeds, if reported at all, are typically pretty clinical in language, whereas attacks involving allegedly pit-bull type dogs are reported across the country in sensationalistic language? Consider also that in the article on the golden retriever and aussie mixes, the author goes out of the way to come up with justifications or excuses for the attack. Had it been pit bulls, there would be no question in the author’s mind but that bred-in psychosis triggered the attack. She would never have stopped to wonder about abuse or neglect, or to preface with a statement about how uncommon the event is.
All dogs can bite. Any breed can kill. When we lose sight of this fact, we also lose our ability to effectively combat the root issues behind canine aggression. It’s like enacting laws that only apply to people based on their ethnicity, and claiming that’s going to curb crime. Instead of panicking at the sight of a pit bull, you should be paying attention to what factors are usually involved in fatal dog attacks: free-roaming, unattended dogs and dogs on chains are more likely to bite. Dog bite related fatalities usually involve unattended, intact male dogs. The pack mentality seen in multiple free-roaming dogs, and maternal aggression exhibited by a bitch with a litter are also common triggers for human aggression. Abused and neglected dogs are frequently perpetrators. If you see a loose pit bull running around, you should be concerned that it’s a loose dog, regardless of breed.
You will be far safer understanding that all these factors are the real reasons why dogs attack… and dogs of all breeds do attack and kill. You have been misled by a tragic event and a media feeding frenzy into believing something that simply is not true. There are two unfortunate side effects of this wide-spread belief. One is that we are wasting huge amounts of resources on ineffective legislation that does not impact the rate of dog-bite incidents, and, two, that untold thousands of good dogs are being killed simply by virtue of their resemblance to the dangerous dog du jour. In Denver alone, thousands of them. Indirectly across the nation in staggering numbers… because if there are two dogs in a shelter, one a “pit-type” dog and one a Cocker Spaniel, in many areas the pit-type dog would be euthanized immediately, or in very short order when space comes to a premium. They are more likely to be judged unfairly in temperament testing, and less likely to be promoted at adoption events… this all despite the fact that the Cocker is, in reality, far more likely to bite.
When people like LHOD ascribe a concept like “psychosis” to correctable behavioral problems, they are demonstrating a serious and fundamental misunderstanding of canine behavior and psychology. They’re killing these dogs based on a myth, and often preferentially placing more dangerous dogs because they look appealing. Chows and chow mixes, for example, are adorable… but they are definitely not dogs that should be handled by inexperienced dog owners. Yet a fluffy, prick-eared, “shepherd-type” is often assumed by both shelter workers and potential adoptees to be the safer dog. Herding dogs are famously toothy. I worked as a dog groomer and a vet tech for most of my life. We all knew the dogs to watch out for: Corgis and Australian Cattle Dogs. They are bred to move two-thousand-pound cattle using the force of their personality and their teeth. They are often highly opinionated dogs with few compunctions about using their mouth to get their way.
Pit-type dogs? No problem. I never had to muzzle a pit-type dog when clipping toenails, or restraining for a procedure. Herding breeds were frequently handed over to me with instructions from the owner to muzzle the dog.
You really should think about this, and understand: it’s not what the dog looks like that makes it dangerous. It’s the way it’s handled.
All animals are dangerous to the extent of their physical abilities. Poor dog care is the main contributor to biting.
I NEVER leave my young child and dog unattended. The dog goes outside or in the kennel. The dog is only a year old and still play bites and paws people. Sharp teeth and claws can easily cause serious accidental injury to a small child with relatively fragile skin.
If you own dogs, you have a responsibility to keep them under control at all times. Fence your yard, own an indoor kennel, train your dog, and ALWAYS supervise them with people, especially children.
Don’t rescue shelter dogs if you have kids! It’s a dice roll. Get a puppy or gentle dog from day one! Dogs with agressive behavior many times cannot ever be totally free of it. Dogs trained to attack or fight are never again suitable as family pets IMHO.
If you feel another poster is wrong, take it to either Great Debates or the Pit. Not here.
Keep it civil. This is an official warning. If you don’t know that one of our rules is to “attack the post, not the poster,” then read the stickies before you post again. This will not be tolerated.
We don’t know for sure, because as the CDC and AVMA point out, there are no reliable studies that give us the answer to that question. We also have no reliable way to asses bite statistics because of the difficulty with obtaining anything like an accurate census. Also, as recent DNA evidence shows, we can’t much rely on our perceptions of breed content in mixed-breed dogs. I have personal perceptions drawn from my experience as a dog groomer, dog handler, vet tech, and working in a “high risk” environment handling large numbers of what they call “random source” (and allegedly dangerous or high risk) dogs, but those are not scientific observations.
Since I can’t guess what any of those random-source dogs were, breed-wise, I can only really say with any confidence that I was frequently warned and dodged my fair share of bite attempts by dogs that were generally cattle drovers, asiatic breeds, and eastern European protection-sport dogs, typically good examples of those breeds and identified as such by their owners. Anything beyond that is pure speculation and anecdote.
My experience with the random-source dogs, the overwhelming majority of which were of the “pit bull” phenotype and which passed through our hands because they had been deemed the worst-of-the-worst offenders and classified as “unadoptable” by the city and county shelters, is that by and large their worst crime appeared to be “looking like a pit bull”, and that most were very nice, patient and sweet-tempered dogs, even in a “maximum security prison” environment. Since this was supposed to be a cross-section representative of the worst-case scenario, I have to say: I would take a random source pit bull a shelter accused of dog aggression over many breeds, any day of the week.
My point with the comment about chows, for example, was not necessarily that I feel that chows are more violent dogs, but they are more “difficult” dogs to handle, and because we can’t necessarily identify mixed-breed dogs by phenotype, nor can we at all identify dangerous dogs by phenotype, if a shelter is preferentially placing “non-pit-type” dogs solely based on appearance, they may be placing the more dangerous dog due to reliance on a myth and external appearance for temperament assessments, rather than actual, objective observation or knowledge of canine behavior and psychology.
A dog is a dog is a dog. There is no mythical villain in the canine world. Breeds have behavioral characteristics and “personalities”, but they’re all still dogs and all still “think” the same way… and again, having been bred for high pain tolerance, a love for challenge, and poor “conflict resolution skills” does not make a dog more likely to attack a person. For anyone who still believes a dog’s pit-fighting history makes them more appropriately de facto dangerous than any other breed, I’m still waiting for an answer on why that’s so, more than a dog like, say, a German Shepherd Dog which has historically been bred for its ability to chase down and bite human beings. I am not claiming that GSDs are more dangerous, I am simply asking, logically, how do you reconcile this?
When did I make that claim?
I’m going to wear a hole in these quotes:
You can kill a man with dynamite, and you can kill a man by having him choke on large marshmallow-should we take all regulations off of buying dynamite, or should we impose heavy regulations on the buying of marshmallows?
As much all you’d like us to believe that all breeds of dogs are pretty much equal in temperament from the getgo, I’m not buying it. Different breeds have different physical and psychological makeups. This is true of horses, cows, geese, birds and yes, even dogs. Some breeds are easy going, some are high strung, some are flighty etc., and trying to lay all the blame on the owners for the natural tendencies of a particular breed of dog is wrong, in my humble opinion.
Very true dropzone.That was my original point here.That when a pitbull bites it’s far more serious than any other breed.9 out of 10 times it’s not just a bite,it’s an attack!I’ve seen it more than a few times on people and on other dogs.
The question shouldnt be why I think it.The question should be why is it true!
2009 Fatalities
1-Georgia: 5 y.o. girl by 3 family pit bulls in backyard of her home. It was reported that the child was playing on a trampoline at the time of the attack, and the attack was initiated by one of the pit bulls, and the other two pit bulls, reportedly chained, broke their chains and joined in the attack. In Thomasville, GA on 1/5/09.
2-Texas: A 3 y.o. girl crawled through a hole in the fence that separated her backyard from her neighbors which contained a 17-year-old by Rottweiler. The owner of the Rottweiler discovered the child still aive in his backyard. The Rottweiler had no reported history of aggression towards people. In Fort Worth, TX on 1/17/09
3-Pennsylvania: 8 y.o. girl by chained mix-breed dog in Hookstown, PA. on 1/19/09
4-Illinois: Four year-old boy attacked and killed by a Rottweiler, and possibly another household Rottweiler, in the backyard of the foster family home where the boy had been living. At the time of the attack, the child was alone, and the foster partents elswhere. Controversy over this fatality has arisen because of the appropriateness of placing this child in a foster home with dogs of this type. In Chicago, on January 12.
Illinois: 3 week-old infant pulled off bed and mauled by family’s Siberian husky, in Bourbonnais, IL. on 1/19/09.
5-Arizona: 2 week-old infant in crib by family owned chow in Mesa, AZ.about 3/3/09
6-Texas: 2 y.o boy in backyard of family home by female pit bull on 3/26/08 in Luling, TX. Investigation revealed that the dog had no prior history of aggressive behavior towards people, no prior complaints to animal control, and that it was chained at the time of the incident.
7-California: 38 y.o man in backyard of home by his own two bull mastiffs, who he may have been breeding. Animal control confirmed the female was in heat and the male reproductively intact at the time of the incident. Rancho Mirage, CA. on 3/16/09.
8-Georgia: Three-year-old boy killed by a husky dog, or possibly a wolf hybrid, owned by a neighbor. The child reportedly had friendly interactions with the dog prior to the attack. It was reported that the attack commenced when the boy started crying, and the dog who was chained nearby, broke free from its collar and attacked the boy. The owner of the dog pulled the dog off the child, and killed the animal with gunshot. In Jesep on March 22.
9-Texas: Seven month old attacked and killed by two male pit bulls when grandmother placed infant on bed and went to get a bottle. Grandmother tried stop the attack with kitchen knife, and the dogs and turned to attack her, but were eventually forced into the backyard. According to news reports, the pit bulls broke through the baby gate, and were reported to have a history of aggressive behavior. In San Antonio on April 1.
10-Louisiana: 4 y.o. boy mauled to death by one or more boxer dogs owned by a next door neighbor. Three boxers escaped from their yard after being let of their kennel by the owner’s fiancé, and escaped into the neighbors adjacent backyard, encountered the boy, who was alone playing. It is uncertain as to how many of the dogs took part in the attack. No previous complaints about the dogs were on file with animal control. In Morganza on April 10.
11-Arizona: A 48-year-old man was attacked by a pack of dogs but not killed on March 28 when he was walking along the drainage canal approximately 8 miles north of Yuma, Arizona, which borders California. He survived the attack, was hospitalized, but subsequently died in hospital on April 14 from dog-bite related injuries. As many as 11 dogs may have been involved in the incident.
12-Michigan: Three reproductively intact Australian shepherd mix dogs attacked and killed a 41-year-old man in his small trailer/camper, located on the property of the person who owned the dogs. The owner of the dogs, an elderly person, was a friend of the victim, and at the time of the incident was in hospital. News reports state that the victim received as many as 200 puncture wounds, covering most of his body. Neighbors say the dogs were very aggressive, and the dogs also attacked two friends who went to visit the victim, only to discover his mutilated body inside the camper. Police arrived and shot the dogs. It is unclear if the attack started inside or outside the camper. Near Kinda, Michigan on April 14.
13-Michican: A 5 year old family pit bull jumped up on the bed where a one-year-old boy was standing, with the parents nearby, and supposedly without warning started attacking the victim, the attacks being directed towards the child’s head, and the dog would not let go. The father killed the dog by shooting him eight times with a 45 caliber handgun. Neighbors say the dog was aggressive by nature and were afraid to walk by the house on certain days, but family members told police that the dog had displayed no signs of aggression prior to the incident, and no previous attacks on humans by this dog were on record with animal control. In Eastpointe on April 22.
14-Texas: Some dispute exists as to the breed of the two dogs which mauled a 10-year-old boy to death in Leverett’s Chaple, TX on June 15. The boy was riding his skateboard in this small, rural community when he encountered the two dogs who apparently had escaped from a nearby yard. Animal control is certain that the dogs were pit bulls, but the owner who was not home at the time of the incident disputes this. Neighbors who knew the dogs, say they were “mean”.
15-Illinois: A three-year-old boy was attacked in front of his home after crawling out of a bedroom window. According to news reports, his parents, who were home at the time of the incident,were under the impression that the child was sleeping in the bedroom. Three dogs, owned by the victim’s parents, were identified as two pitbull mix dogs, and one Collie mix dog. They were loose in front of the house when they encountered the child. It is not known how many of these dogs participated in the mauling. in Johnson City, Illinois on June 28.
You tell me why it keeps happening!
Actually, in the US a young child dies every 5 days from choking on food and more than 10,000 children per year are hospitalized for food choking… Among the worst offenders – you guessed it – hotdogs & marshmallows. We actually would save more lives if we imposed regulations on marshmallows than if we imposed bans on pit bulls … Regrettably, you haven’t posted anything on Straight Dope about putting an end to all the needless deaths & injuries to America’s children caused by marshmallows. Seriously, Czarcasm, where’s the outrage? It would appear your criteria for judging whether something should be regulated is driven more by your individual perceptions/fears/morals (in this case about dog breeds) than by a logical approach to how many deaths/injuries could actually be prevented.
(emphasis mine)
I’m not saying that, either. I said they are all the same animal.* Canis familiaris* is* canis familiaris*. In fact, I have made the observation more than once that some breeds are more difficult to handle than others, etc. They are still all the same animal. You tailor your training and handling to the individual, not to the breed. It’s patently obvious that the average Perro de Presa Canario needs more experienced handling than the average toy poodle, but you would handle a vicious toy poodle the same way you would a vicious Presa. It’s certainly true that some breeds are better left to experienced handlers than others. But… pit bulls aren’t one of them. I would venture to guess that I have handled more “dangerous” dogs, I mean, on record dangerous, dogs with registered bite histories or aggression complaints against them than anyone here, probably more than anyone on the 'Dope. Hundreds of them, if not thousands if you include accusations of dog aggression.
I have handled most “exotic” breeds at one time or another, and I have handled some of the hardest dogs you maybe can’t even imagine.
Pits are very… very soft dogs. They are, in general, extremely easy to handle and train.
What I am saying, and what I’ve said with just about every post is…
Murdering people is not a “natural tendency” of pit bull dogs.
The phenotype you associate with “pit bull dogs” can be exhibited by several dozen other breeds, as well as any infinite number of mixes.
Therefore…
Effective, comprehensive dangerous dog legislation addresses all breeds and types equally. You know why that is?
Breed-specific legislation does not work. Comprehensive, behavior-based dangerous dog legislation does.
I have provided you with studies from four countries and data from two areas in the US where breed-specific legislation has failed to improve the rate of dog bite incidents.
You have failed to explain to me in anything but the vaguest, most generic metaphorical terms (“you can kill a man with dynamite…”) why you believe pit bull type dogs to be more dangerous than any other breed.
You have failed repeatedly to respond to my logical inquiry as to why a thirty five pound dog bred to fight other dogs would be more inherently vicious than a one hundred pound dog bred to attack human beings.
You have failed to present any useful data whatsoever supporting your argument, and you have failed to provide any meaningful discourse supporting your position.
Breed specific legislation does not work. Behavioral-based legislation does.
Keeping in mind, of course, that all those numbers and breed reports are suspect… I suppose some of those Dauchsunds and Dalmations could have been pit bulls in disguise.
Congratulations **HamHawk **… you just made NajaNivea’s point for her/him.
Looking at your impressive 15 item list, only 6 allegedly involved pit bulls and at least 2 of those are disputed by your own account. The other 9 incidences involved breeds that fall squarely into the category of dogs which NajaNivea spoke of with “human aggressive” genetic histories (i.e. rotts, mastiffs, chows, boxers) or which have no relation to pit bulls at all (i.e. collies, huskies, shepherds). If you’re going to assert that pits – due to their fighting histories – are overwhelmingly more proned to kill than other breeds with genetic histories geared towards human & animal aggression, why would you provide a 15 item “kill list” where the vast majority of breeds ARE NOT PITS??? Your Honor, I’d like to request new Counsel !
One can also see from even the brief accounts provided by HamHawk the point that Karen Delise has been making for years … that breed is not the driving factor in dog attacks. Rather, you find factors like “intact males” “female in heat” “chained” “multiple dogs running in packs” “unsupervised child” “previous history of aggression” “child wonders into neighbors back yard containing a guard dog”. So, unless you’re in the camp of banning all breeds that have killed, the focus must be on education, behavior-based legislation, and stiff penalties for negligent owners.
Wow, you leave a thread for a few weeks, and all kinds of wackiness pops up in it. Lemme address some of it.
Hamhawk, this board has a quote feature. For the love of Christ, learn to use it!
“Think of the children” is a fallacy when it’s an appeal to emotion, or when it’s used to silence debate, or when there’s no recognition of the fact that parents can differentiate children’s risks from those of adults. When it’s used to address a danger that disproportionately affects children, it’s absolutely relevant, and dismissing it as a fallacy is ridiculous.
Naja, your insinuations about my work at an animal shelter are offensive, stupid, and ignorant. I never once made a decision about an animal’s life or death; that wasn’t my job. I quit working there three years ago. My animal shelter adopted out pit bull-type dogs regularly, and I approved of this and wrote defenses of it as a policy.
Along the same lines, folks who are worried about pits being euthanized need to shut up about BSL and start supporting mandatory spay/neuter laws, laws that are by far the best solution to the millions of animals euthanized in the US every year due to overpopulation. The number of pits who are euthanized in this process are a small fraction of the total.
Naja, there appears to me to be some serious crazy in some of your posts, but I could be misunderstanding. Could you clarify your beliefs about whether animal behaviors may be genetically encoded? Can they be? Can there be different genetically-encoded behaviors within members of the same species? Same breed? Can mental illnesses be inherited? If you’re answering “no” to any of these questions, that strikes me as bizarre on the flat-earth-society level of bizarre, but I don’t want to assume that that’s how you’re answering them.
mercedes, you have a very different understanding of risk from mine. Minuscule risks are still worth protecting from. I’ve probably ridden in a car some 25,000 times in my life, and I don’t think my seat belt has ever saved my life; but I recognize that riding in a car presents a heightened risk to my safety, and so every time I get in one, I buckle up. Similarly, because of choking hazards, I’m careful about how I feed my baby girl. (Of course, there’s nobody who’s created the “Hot Dog Defense Network” to rant about the ignorance of people who believe hot dogs present a choking hazard to kids, and there aren’t hot dog aficionados who go around calling me superstitious for this, either).
Finally, I won’t respond to line-by-line refutations. I can type 90 wpm, but there’s no reason to try to overwhelm with verbiage, and I’m uninterested in your arguments if you have to substitute quantity for quality. The only reason this post is so long is that I’m responding to a few weeks’ worth of posts.
