Challenge: How to Stop Obesity?

Great Debates
101

I’ve always been a little confused by the claim that healthy eating is more expensive than eating junk. When I quit eating fast food, I saved a huge amount of money.
At this site http://www.grocerygateway.com/ just now, I was able to put together a shopping list for the following diet at an average cost of around $3 per meal. I couldn’t eat that cheaply by eating junk.

What are others’ experiences?

Breakfast: whole grain toast and grapefruit
Lunch: fruit salad or green salad with spinach and tomato, cottage cheese or tuna, glass of milk or soy milk
Dinner: chicken breast or tofu, carrots & broccoli, whole grain rice or sweet potato, salad with spinach, romaine lettuce, and tomato, glass of milk or soy milk
Snacks: crackers and cheese, apples
I love the idea of printing calories on the receipt. I think that would be really effective!

102

Congratulations. You have invented the potato.

That has already been linked to with DDR machine thing. Or you could just play your GameBoy on the stationary bike.

I have read several posters who claim that eating healthy is more expensive than unhealthy. I will grant that it is more convenient, but more expensive? Cite?

IOW, why is broiling a chicken breast for five minutes on a side and eating it with a baked potato more expensive than a hamburger, fries, and a Coke?

Regards,
Shodan

103

Please don’t interpret the following as an argument that Americans are incapable of helping themselves due to a genetic propensity towards fat… * however, * I did want to point out one thing: the genetic makeup of any randomely selected group of people in Chicago vs. the genetic makeup of any randomely selected group of people in Europe, is going to include a MUCH wider range of differences. Why? Simple: we are the melting pot, remember? Even in relatively “multicultural” locales like London, there is still a pretty small genetic pool with just a few variations (England being mostly English people with a noticable percentage of Indian people and a sprinkling of a few others.) America includes a whole bunch of everything, including a huge mix of different strains of white folks (German, French, English, Dutch, Swiss, Italian, Spanish, Czech (sp?) Hungarian, Pole, blah blah blah).

The ability to gain weight easily and hold it has to be considered, from an evolutionary POV, an excellent thing which was almost certainly passed on more readily than the reverse among certain populations of humans.

Which, again, is not to argue powerlessness on the part of Americans.
The rest of what you say is well known and certainly has an enormous amount to do with the “Obesity gap” between America and Europe.

And I have to get back to work so I can’t go on right now.

104

Have you ever bought a single chicken breast? No, you gotta buy 4-6, which will cost at least five bucks. So now you have to have chicken for several meals, and you have to be home and able to plan ahead for these meals (hard if you work and have kids). Are you going to eat this chicken plain?Chances are you at least need some oil, which is gonna cost you five bucks, and some kind of spice, which will cost you another five bucks. Then you need butter for that baked potato, which is around three bucks (unless you buy a little pack of butter, which is uneconomical) and maybe sour cream(four bucks).

Cooking is cheap if you already have a well stocked kitchen, but the capital outlay it takes to get the oils, spices, and other basics you need to cook everyday is impossible for many people. Plus, people with children and odd work schedules (keep in mind, most minimum wage service jobs change schedules weekly, so you never know when you are working nights etc.) don’t have the luxery of being able to plan out their meals economically, meaning a lot of food goes to waste. And this all assumes that you have a kitchen at all, which is a big assumption. Lots of poor people live in hotels, cars, or sketchy shared housing arrangments where access to a kitchen isn’t a given.

105

Have you ever bought a single chicken breast? No, you gotta buy 4-6, which will cost at least five bucks. So now you have to have chicken for several meals, and you have to be home and able to plan ahead for these meals (hard if you work and have kids). Are you going to eat this chicken plain?Chances are you at least need some oil, which is gonna cost you five bucks, and some kind of spice, which will cost you another five bucks. Then you need butter for that baked potato, which is around three bucks (unless you buy a little pack of butter, which is uneconomical) and maybe sour cream(four bucks).

Cooking is cheap if you already have a well stocked kitchen, but the capital outlay it takes to get the oils, spices, and other basics you need to cook everyday is impossible for many people. Plus, people with children and odd work schedules (keep in mind, most minimum wage service jobs change schedules weekly, so you never know when you are working nights etc.) don’t have the luxery of being able to plan out their meals economically, meaning a lot of food goes to waste. And this all assumes that you have a kitchen at all, which is a big assumption. Lots of poor people live in hotels, cars, or sketchy shared housing arrangments where access to a kitchen isn’t a given.

106

even sven, I know the issues of poverty, substandard housing, etc. are hot-button ones for you, and you’ve certainly discussed them in detail before. I am certainly sympathetic to the barriers to good nutrition that poor people face, especially the working poor.

However;

a) where the heck are you doing your grocery shopping that oil costs $5, and any sort of spice $5? (And heck, onions and garlic are pretty darn cheap, keep for a long time with no refrigeration, and do great things for a chicken breast.) Even the ripoff convenience stores near me don’t charge that, much less supermarkets, and I live in an expensive major metro area! And it’s certainly no problem to buy 1-2 pieces of chicken in a package, although given, you do get a better price on larger amounts; and
b) the vast majority of Americans have access to nutritious food, refrigerators, freezers, and running water, not to mention microwaves, pots, and pans. Even if every single poor person in America were morbidly obese, it still wouldn’t excuse the rest of us who are overweight. Even in the current recession, the proportion of poor Americans is far smaller than the 2/3 of Americans who are at least somewhat overweight.

107

even sven, you had me with the chicken breasts and then lost me. Five bucks for oil? Three bucks of butter? You can get both of these things in considerable quantities for a little more than a buck each.

I think poor people tend to be overweight for pretty simple reasons. I don’t know where a McDonald’s is in Maplewood or Livingston, NJ, but I can locate two in East Orange, NJ. On my way home through Newark, I pass two Wendy’s, two Checker’s, and a million fried chicken joints. These places are smack dab in the poorest neighborhoods in the state. Along with liquor stores. Poor people might buy these foods in higher proportions not simply because they are “naturally inclined” towards cheap foods, but also because those places are constantly in their face.

Fast foods are not only relatively cheap (I swear, KFC practically gives away their food sometimes) but it’s DELICIOUS. It’s much tastier than a broiled chicken breast and a side of cottage cheese, especially if all you’ve ever eaten in fast food.

When you have money, you can afford leisure activities that don’t revolve around food. But if you’re poor, chances are you have little time and money for leisure. So…tasty food becomes your “something to look forward to”. You don’t have to save up to get a value meal from McDonald’s.

Also, there aren’t too many places in Newark, NJ where it’s safe to go jogging or walking. I feel comfortable riding my bike in my neighborhood, but I’m cautious about the route I take. I do see people–usually grandmamas inspired by Oprah and probably empowered by the Holy Spirit–puffing it out in their sweatsuits, but I don’t see a whole bunch of folks taking afternoon constitutionals. It’s not safe to do this, and it’s not fun (littered streets full of winos and crackheads aren’t particularly scenic).

108

I’m just speaking from experience. I grew up on fast food, precisely because whenever we even walked into a store we’d end up spending twenty bucks, whereas a trip to Taco Bell would only cost us five.

I admit I was off on my price estimates. According to www.safeway.com those things are more in the three-fifty to four dollar range.

109

Actually, for people living in urban areas, especially those in poorer urban areas, eating healthy food can be a LOT more expensive than eating unhealthy food. You have to take into account not only the cost of food, but also transportation costs, which for some people are unaffordable. For one thing, there are significantly fewer grocery stores available in urban areas. Those stores that are in urban areas charge more for their fruits and vegetables than stores in less urban, higher-income neighborhoods, and many of the fruits and vegetables they sell are rotten. Many people who live in lower-income urban areas rely on public transportation to get around, and therefore can’t carry a large load of groceries. Many people can’t afford to take the bus to the supermarket and take a cab back home. So, low-income families end up eating a lot of food from convenience stores and fast food restaurants.

Also, exercising in low-income urban areas can be extremely dangerous. If you live somewhere where shootings and burglaries are regular occurences, the likelihood of getting any exercise decreases significantly because you’re worried about your own safety and that of your children, if you have any.

110

FYI: McD’s now puts even more salt on the fries! They have made new shakers to “pour the correct amount” on our fries… Yuck. Next time you go there and order a meal ask for no salt! The employees are happy to not salt them for you.

111

Stoid, I don’t buy this as an argument for why there would be more obesity in the U.S. Sure, there is a lot more genetic variation in the U.S. but that only means that if there is a very strong genetic component then we ought to lie somewhere in between. It doesn’t mean we should be highly than everybody (or nearly everybody) else. You never get “30” by averaging a bunch of random numbers between 0 and 20.

I also believe studies have been done that show large increases in obesity by people (e.g., Asians) who come to the U.S. from countries where obesity is rare once they adopt the American lifestyle and eating habits. (Those pictures of sumo wrestlers not withstanding, I just do not see fat people when I was in Japan. They either didn’t exist [in any even slightly significant numbers] or they were all hiding.)

I have no doubt that people have different genetic dispositions. But, I think it falls far short in most cases to pre-ordaining one to be obese.

To me it seems pretty obvious why we have a greater obesity problem than most other countries. In those other countries, most people seem to get some exercise from daily routines…e.g., they walk places. And, they usually don’t eat the portion sizes or the calorie-intensive foods we do to as large an extent. (In Denmark, the diet is actually higher in fat but they clearly do more walking and I bet they eat smaller portion sizes.)

112

“Happy?”

Willing, yes, but I doubt happy. Making salt-free fries was a PITA when I worked there. You had to stand over the vat you were frying to keep someone else from grabbing it, lay down papers in another area, dump the fries, serve 'em, and somehow you were supposed to do this while waiting on other customers. And of course the customer who ordered them in the first place gets all pissy because they have to wait 7 minutes for the fries to cook.

113

Depends upon where you live. And what types of foods you’re speaking of.

At McDonald’s (which I loathe, except for their shakes and “homemade” cookies), a person can buy this Hamburger, fries and Coke for about 2.69. That’s a LOT of food, and it’s very cheap. It’s filling, and it’s quick and it’s tasty (well, to me they taste like salty wet cardboard, but hey, to each his own).

Your chicken breast/potato example is pretty inexpensive, but what REALLY blows the budget out of the water is the fruits and veggies. (believe I mentioned this before).

Now, perhaps they’re astronomically less expensive in the states, but up here? A small carton of blueberries (maybe 2 servings) is about 5 bucks. All of the healthier food is ridiculously expensive. The tofu, the non-fat dairy products, and so on.

And they’re perishable. So it’s great if you’re able to run home at lunch time and grill UP that chicken breast, and nuke that tater, but most folks aren’t able to do that.

And since they’re not educated on “how to plan” they’re not savvy in ways to prep ahead of time that will save time and money.

And again, most severely obese people without much education in nutrition aren’t going to be very cognizant of options other than “rabbit food”. So cooking a healthy AND tasty alternative doesn’t even cross their radar.

Again, education. Teach people that it CAN be tasty and still good for you. Teach people how to cook up little minimeals in bulk, freeze them and then take them to work.

Teach people to make sure they’ve got an “emergency” meal so that they don’t HAVE to get trapped into stopping at McDonald’s after they’ve been running errands for 8 hours that should have taken 2. …and so on…

Trouble is, those in the “anti-fat” crowd, are always going on about “Nooo, they don’t need that, How hard IS it to just eat right and exercise right”.

Well hey morons (meaning the detractors)! It’s obviously NOT working (meaning the shaming and the “it’s simple just eat less/exercise more”), so maybe you should shift your mindset and, oh I don’t know, try something NEW?

114

She’s pretty right on about the spices and the butter.

Spices in those little jars run about 3.59 or so (in AK, not sure about where even lives), butter, REAL butter? For a 4 cube (or whatever they call them) pack? Yup, close to 5 bucks, I believe it was 3.99 last time I bought one, and that was last year during the holidays.

even sven’s questions EXACTLY prove this point. People are NOT aware of how to do this!!! How much more proof does one need? They get caught up in exactly the sort of:

… OH MY GOD, I gotta buy 4 to 6 chix breasts, and that means I have to figure out how to COOK them ALL before they go bad (where’m I going to find the time to do all that cooking in between my 3 jobs and school???), and then I have to buy ALL the damn stuff that goes along with them, AND the condiments that go along with that, SHEESH now my grocery cart has sky-rocketed up to 50 bucks

AGGGH, I can’t afford that, and I’m late for class, I’ll just grab a burger and have that last Kraft mac n cheese for dinner tonite, I don’t have time for anything else.

Then the person’s shift on his/her last job ends up running late and they’re too tired to cook, so they stop for another fast food meal, and the cycle continues.

And someone coming in and saying “sheesh, chicken breasts and potatoes are cheaper than a hamburger, it’s really simple, anyone can do it” is not only frustrating, but insulting.

small hijack…
even sven To answer your questions. First of all, in order to keep the chicken breasts healthy, you wouldn’t cook them in oil. Grill them or bake them. Actually baking is the best, insofar as time saving. You can pop them into the oven, and then go study, or clean house, or whatever you need to do.

Ditto with the potato, it’s not the potatoes that are fattening, it’s what people put ON them.

Instead of butter or sour cream, try salsa. There are all sorts of yummy flavors, and they’re very low in fat, and high in vitamens, fiber and so on.

Or, if you must have that buttery flavor, you can buy the little spray on light butter, it’s about 3 bucks for a little spray bottle that lasts forever.

And for the chix breasts? Browbeat someone into getting you a George Foreman (or Generic brand) grill for christmas. EXCELLENT investment.

You can marinate chicken breasts, small lean steaks, lean hamburger, etc and then pop it on the grill for about 8 minutes.

Now as to the time factor. Grab yourself some of those “Gladware” containers, cook up your entire batch of chicken and potatoes (or brown rice) all at once.

Now parcel out one chicken breast and one complex carb serving per container. Freeze them all, and then when you have to have something to take to work? You can pack one of those and pop it in the microwave.

You can use them for soups, casseroles, and so on.

There are some great books available on how to stock up and save time and money by freezing ahead of time.

115

argh, HealthFUL, in order to keep the chicken breasts HealthFUL.

(I think it’s a bit too late for those chickens to be healTHY :D)

116

CanvasShoes:

The staple spices in my book are salt, pepper, and garlic powder. You can get a giant thing of idionized salt for less than a buck. From the dollar store you can get pepper and garlic power for fifty cents each. If you want McCormick’s, it’s going to be more expensive, yes, but we’re talking about poor folks. Poor folks shouldn’t be getting namebrands because namebrands are overpriced.

I know that prices in AK are expensive, but in most places you can get margarine for really really cheap. Like ninety cents. Butter is not that much more. If I had to pay $3.59 for butter, there would be no butter in my refrigerator because I can’t afford that. So I get margarine. Poor folks don’t have the luxury of consuming exclusively REAL butter, sorry.

I agree that cooking healthily is expensive. Getting lean cuts of poultry and meat is expensive. Fresh vegetables and fruits are expensive. But let’s not exaggerate to push this point. Oil and butter are not an expensive commodities in most areas of the country (and they aren’t healthy anyway). And the staple condiments aren’t either, particularly since they last a while.

I’m not trying to sound unsympathetic, but I really don’t get it. A couple of years ago, I was living on the edge of poverty. I wouldn’t have ever bought chicken breasts because of the prohibitive cost (also because I’m a darkmeat lover). However, I wouldn’t have been clueless if someone had given them to me. I have salt and pepper and ketchup in my cabinent–the main condiments that I use. I have a pan and a stove and a spatula. I could figure it out. And it would not have not cost me fifty bucks to cook six chicken breasts!

Poor people aren’t stupid. Poor people, IMHO, tend to be much more independent and commonsensical than wealthy people. I’d argue that most folks–poor or not–would be able to prepare chicken breasts with minimal effort. Most everyone who has a kitchen knows how to roast chicken (I’m the most noncookingest person on the planet, and I know how to do this).

It’s not the lack of salt, pepper, and garlic powder that’s making poor people fat. I think that’s a oversimplication of the problem.

I agree. But I think the reason why poorer people gravitate towards the hamburger isn’t just because of convenience and cost. It’s also because hamburgers are tastier, goshdarnit! And hamburgers–not chicken breasts and potatoes–are what bombard you daily on television and on your way to the bus stop.

117

Eh, don’t look at me. I weigh 100lbs and am living off of charity food.

I’m working off my memories of growing up poor, and how hard it was to get started cooking. It seemed like whenever we’d try, there would be a massive capital outlay for basic pantry stuff that we didn’t have and food would end up spoiling because of our erratic lives and schedules. When combined with cleanup and preperation time, this all made cooking a bigger pain in the ass than it was worth to a single working mom. My mom wasn’t stupid. She was faced with an unfortunate set of economic choices and the choice that made most sense for her unfortunatly may have sacrificed health. But when you are in this situation, sacrificing health is not going to have the same immediate negative effects as running out of time or running out of money. It was not a sustainable situation, but being dirt poor isn’t sustainable. It’s possible to just plain not be able to make it, and that is what is happening to many people. It’s not true that everything will work out if you just try hard enough.

118

True, sorry I took it literally when she said butter. I don’t even like real butter. I’m so used to “lite” margarine, that butter tastes too heavy and salty.

First, I don’t believe that uneducated or unaware of how to plan and make it work is equivelant to stupid.

And secondly, actually that part of my post wasn’t directed at poor people persay, but people who aren’t aware of how to organize and plan such meals so as to minimize waste and to make them portable and still healthy and tasty.

Yes, a person CAN “make do” with chicken breasts, salt, pepper and ketchup, but a steady diet of that would be enough to drive a person to nasty McDonald’s burgers (I usually SO agree with your posts monstro but you are WAAAY off base on this one girl…:smiley: burgers are ICKY).

At any rate, yes, I agree, anyone can fix some chicken breasts. Not everyone can cook, or knows how to make halfway decent tasting meals with healthful ingredients, nor does everyone understand the best ways to plan ahead to make these meals portable for jobs, school etc.

And THAT, I believe, IS an issue. No, not the ONLY one, but it certainly contributes to people’s “downfalls” when it comes to giving into temptation (which I still disagree that fast food is :D, except maybe taco belle).

I agree, but in order to make it NOT “oversimplified” I’d have to paste the books and training that I use and that would take up pages of posts. :smiley: I thought that I went on in my post to explain a few of the easiest tips to follow. To completely retrain oneself a person would need to buy, or check out one or more of the excellent books on nutrition, cooking, and how to bring it easily and conveniently into one’s life.

Nuh UH!!! :smiley: (sticks finger in mouth, gag gag, hehe).

119

Ah, well for YOU you can have all the 5 dollar oil you want. :smiley:

Yes! and this is exactly what I’m talking about. You’re trying to work 3 jobs to make ends meet, PLUS go to school, PLUS raise kids etc. It’s not that people are “stupid” or that they don’t try. In your words, and this is exactly my point. They don’t really know “how to get started” with little time and money and cooking/nutrition know how.

Thus “Well!! Chicken breasts and potatoes are cheap and fast” is oversimplified and insulting. It’s like “eat a salad”. An oversimplification of the problem and one which doesn’t address educating people on HOW to “get started”.

I’m not saying that chicken breasts and potatoes are NOT one way to cook somewhat inexpensive and healthy meals. I’m saying that the person needs to be helped with the logistics of how to do that on a tight time and money budget.

(bolding mine)

AMEN. And had someone sat down with your mom and said “here are fast and easy menus, and here’s a step by step way to do it that WILL save you time and money AND be healhful” then she’d likely have jumped at the chance. No?

But I’m betting that for her, and for lots of other people (and not just poor ones), it was a struggle just to get all her hours in at work, care for her house and kids, and get 4 hours a night if she was lucky eh?

I am NOT saying that this is a valid excuse, so that people can just say “oh well, I can’t POSSIBLY do it, see? this fitness instructor even says it’s very difficult”.

What I’m saying is that IF and UNTIL the people struggling with this are educated in how to do this, that fits in with THEIR lives, they will continue to find nasty fast food burgers both more tasty, and more convenient.

120

You’re in Alaska, right? So maybe your prices aren’t comparable, but still, where are you shopping?

I went to the store tonight. Butter? $0.99 cents a pound. Butter spray, the non-fat stuff? $1.19. Garlic powder, poultry seasoning, black pepper, dried thyme, bay leaves, dried rosemary and cinnamon, $0.99 cents each. 1 quart of Canola oil (which is a lot) $2.39.

1 pound of frozen lima beans, $1.19. 3 pounds of frozen peas, $2.88. 1.5 pound bag of ready-to-eat salad greens, $1.89. Low-fat salad dressing (Ranch), $1.48.

We don’t eat meat, so I can’t tell you what meat prices were, but I receive the store circulars and regularly see meat at per pound prices that are less (per pound) than one Big Mac or Whopper.

This isn’t an issue of cost. It’s not an issue of education. It’s about time, energy, convenience and taste. When it’s as easy for people to make themselves a meal at home – healthy, not so healthy, whatever – from real food (not convenience/processed/fat-salt-preservative laden stuff) as it is to stop off and pick up the restaurant meal that they know will be hot and (to their mind) tasty, they will make the meal themselves. When its takes the same time and energy to make and eat a balanced protein-carb-veg meal as it does to eat a bunch of snack foods and junk foods cobbled together until the eater isn’t hungry anymore, that’s what the eater will do.

Again, this discussion starts from a presumption that fat people eat a lot of fast food and convenience food (moreso than their thin counterparts) and are too poor, unknowledgeable, unskilled or some combination thereof to be able to cook healthy meals for themselves. Those are some big ass presumptions and I’d love to see any kind of supporting evidence for any of them. I won’t hold my breath, though.