Changes in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

[raspberry_hunter]

@Crane

One of the things he covered was that an accountant would meet with us once a year and go over our IRS filing to determine the tithe. I have been told by other LDS that is not true.

I’m gonna add to that. I have never EVER had a bishop who asked for IRS information, and I’ve had lots of lessons in various classes that tithing and that tithing is between us and God. But I guess if your “bishop roulette” doesn’t go well then you might have some icky person who wants to do that.

@Author_Balk

Would there be cases that it’s not gross on income. What if a significant amount of my income is going to elder-care or something like that?

My parents always used after-tax money, but a lot of people consider they should use their gross income. I always thought after-tax made more sense – what about the edge case where the government taxes 95% of your income? (Or, in your case, where 95% goes to elder care?)

@SailorHG

So deduct it and tithe what’s left over. If you go into the settlement meeting and basically tell the bishop “I prayed about it and this is what the Lord want’s me to do” how’s he going to argue with that?

This!

One thing that doesn’t apply to most members: Since my husband isn’t a member, I pay an amount that is sort of a compromise that we can both be reasonably okay with, and declare myself as good with God, and I’ve never had a bishop balk at that. (They’re probably happy my husband is okay with me paying tithing at all – I definitely know some part-member families where it is much more of a struggle and the member can’t pay much or anything at all.)

Except during the years 2015-2019, which were the years that the Church had the policy of not baptizing the children of gay relationships, I paid zero tithing. I was told by my bishop at the time that if I paid even one dollar, I would be considered a “partial tithe payer” which was better than a non-tithe payer. (I actually have no idea what the difference is, maybe it would make me eligible for stake callings and limited temple recommends or something?) I didn’t, because I specifically wanted not to pay tithing those years.

@SailorHG

Regardless, yes, you would have to promise to keep “The Law of Tithing” before they let you join. Whether you make financial offerings after baptism is up to you; they’d apply pressure but wouldn’t kick you out. The annual meeting was called “Tithing Settlement” back when I was a financial clerk but I believe has been renamed since. There you go in and they give you a printout of everything you’ve given to the church, and then you go in to talk to the Bishop and state whether that represents a “full tithe” or not. If you refuse to participate in the meeting then he uses his “power of discernment” to declare your status for you. Once declarations have been made for the entire congregation then the report is submitted to the Stake and electronically to the church HQ.

This. I think it’s still called tithing settlement (ugh, I need to go sign up for this year’s) but I am not sure, I’ll check out what the signup says when I sign up At least in my ward, the bishops have said it’s not just about reckoning tithing but also just to make sure the bishop meets with the families once a year – and we’re one of those families that might never talk to the bishop more than a couple of sentences all year, so I guess that makes sense.

Anyway I agree with everything else @SailorHG says

[puzzlegal]

@raspberry_hunter

It is still the case that a man whose (sealed) wife dies can get re-sealed to a second wife in this life, but a woman whose (sealed) husband dies cannot be re-sealed to another man in this life. (I think this is lame!)

This is basically how Orthodox Judaism works, too. Except widows can remarry, because we are only married for life. But this comes up in the case of civil divorce, where the men can freely remarry, but the woman can’t unless her (ex) husband grants her a get (a religious divorce) and also in the case where a person is believed dead but there’s no body.

Modern conservative Jews usually sign a civil contract at the same time they sign their Jewish marriage contact that basically says, “if we get a civil divorce, the man will give the woman a get, or suffer extreme civil penalties”. There are issues in Orthodox communities where the men refuses to give the woman a get, or uses it to negotiate a better settlement. And after the world trade center collapsed, (killing many Orthodox Jewish men) a lot of widows sought a rabbinic ruling that their husband was actually dead. Testimony was heard about whether he was seen that morning, etc. It was a mess.

Do issues like those come up for Mormons? I suppose Mormon widows are just sool. But i believe there’s a way for Mormons to dissolve a sealed married? Do men use that as leverage over their exes?

[Babale]

@puzzlegal

There are issues in Orthodox communities where the men refuses to give the woman a get, or uses it to negotiate a better settlement.

I remember seeing a news story or short documentary (maybe a 60 minutes style program) about an Orthodox lady who, when called upon by a desperate woman, would go to Orthodox communities and rally the women who live there to create immense social pressure against men who refuse to give a get to a separated wife who is seeking divorce. They’d follow them around essentially protesting them, telling everyone he meets “do you know that this guy has been refusing his wife a get for X months?”.

[puzzlegal]

A lubuvitcher friend told me that men sometimes threaten a guy who refuses to give a get. “A women can be freed two ways [divorce or death]. Which do you prefer?”

[SailorHG]

@raspberry_hunter

if I paid even one dollar, I would be considered a “partial tithe payer”

Yes, this is true. When I mentioned the Bishop at year end having to declare status for those who didn’t come and meet with him, he’d look at the amount and anything over zero was partial (unless it was in the thousands), and a blank box would be “non-tithe payer” regardless of other contributions (missionary fund, humanitarian aid, etc.) As I understood it, church HQ used the report to try to project income for the coming year, so they’d know how many new temples they could announce in General Conference. (I’m being cynical here; it was really just for budgeting purposes in general. )

Regardless, kudos to you for making a protest during those bad-policy years!

@puzzlegal

Do issues like those come up for Mormons? I suppose Mormon widows are just sool. But i believe there’s a way for Mormons to dissolve a sealed married? Do men use that as leverage over their exes?

Actually, it used to be common pretty for women to be sealed to multiple husbands after a civil divorce. This was during the time polygamy was being practiced in the 1800’s, and seemed to be stopped around the same time the “no polygamy” rule began to be enforced. I guess they figured God would sort it out later?

I only learned that bit of trivia this week! From a very interesting video talking about some of the historical changes made in the church from pioneer times. This link should take you to the right spot about 5.5 minutes in:

Top 10 ABANDONED LDS temple practices

Otherwise, yes, some men do try to cause trouble with a re-marriage. Supposedly the church will send them a letter asking for their permission to break the sealing; they can say “yes”, “no”, or just not reply. In both the latter cases the church leadership will determine whether to proceed with the sealing cancellation anyway (might be stake president; I don’t know for sure).

[Author_Balk]

That was an interesting video. I didn’t realize those. It sort of mentioned a couple changes after I left. I heard something, but don’t have details. (blood covenant and 5 points of fellowship - if I understood correctly). I was reminded of my buddy Gordon B. Hinkley. Okay, I guess not my buddy but he is the most famous person I’ve had a chance encounter with in “regular life” and had a short discussion.

[Sauron]

I’m a fairly recent convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints – I joined in 2021. I spent most of my life as a Southern Baptist, with about four years of attending a non-denominational church as well.

My wife is a lifelong member of the Church, and she’s the main reason I converted. She’s divorced, as am I, and she was able to get her sealing to her first husband cancelled so we could be sealed in the Temple. It wasn’t an onerous process – we met with our Bishop and Stake President, and wrote a letter to the Church leadership. I know they consulted her ex-husband (who is a member as well), and he either gave consent or said “I don’t care.”

My experience as a member is different, for a variety of reasons. I’m a later convert (joined in my mid-50s), and I live in Alabama, where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a decided minority in the religious world. Some other churches in our area refuse to partner with us for community or philanthropic work – I’m not quite sure why, but I suspect they believe we’re a cult.

I’ve been very impressed with the Church’s emphasis on service – both to our members and to the community at large. I’ve gone on volunteer trips to clean up after hurricanes and tornadoes, and I’ve done yardwork and other chores for older or infirm members in our area. I’ve also gone on visits with the missionaries to folks in the area who have expressed an interest in learning more about the Church.

There are some aspects of the doctrine that still seem strange to me, and probably always will, but in general the beliefs line up well with my personal theology. I really appreciate the emphasis on service to others, because I believe that’s one of the main things Jesus wants us to do while we’re on the earth.

We’re an integrated congregation, although we’re predominantly white. Many of the members of our ward are highly educated – doctors, lawyers, nurses, professors, librarians, and the like. Our ward boundaries include some of the most affluent areas of Birmingham, as well as some of the most poverty-stricken, so it’s not unusual at our Sunday services to see a well-known local lawyer talking with a person who lives at a shelter.

Tithing settlement is done a little differently in our ward. At the end of the year the Bishop has a brief Zoom call with each family, and simply asks if we’re full tithe-payers. There’s no financial record review, or anything like that – it’s the honor system. He’s also reminded us that tithing can consist of time as well as money, so it’s not strictly about moolah. In that sense it’s actually a little more lenient than the Southern Baptist churches in which I grew up; once a year the pastor would harangue the congregation about the importance of tithing as his sermon.

I’m happy to provide my insights to the thread as well, as long as y’all understand I’m not a scholar of all the beliefs and history of the Church.

[TokyoBayer]

@Sauron

I’m happy to provide my insights to the thread as well, as long as y’all understand I’m not a scholar of all the beliefs and history of the Church.

Welcome! I am really interested in the views of current members, especially recent converts because your experiences will be completely different than mine.

Since I’m asking others, what is your impression of polygamy? @Author_Balk and I provided the historical view and @raspberry_hunter has provided more current information, but as a convert, how do you see it?

[TokyoBayer]

@SailorHG

you can give blessings on the sacrament / communion, baptise other people, and (as an Elder) give healing or comfort blessings, as well as dedicate graves, give new members the Gift of the Holy Ghost, or ordain other people to the Priesthood.

Adding on to this, in traditional Mormon doctrine the authority of the person conducting the ordinance is of utmost importance.

Mormonism believes that the original church had all the necessary authority, including the priesthood, but that was lost to apostasy. Joseph Smith then restored the priesthood and authority to perform the necessary ordinances.

@Sauron

I really appreciate the emphasis on service to others, because I believe that’s one of the main things Jesus wants us to do while we’re on the earth.

Can you tell me more about that? We did a fair amount of service when I was young, but a lot of it as directed internally, towards members in our ward.

[puzzlegal]

@TokyoBayer

@Sauron

really appreciate the emphasis on service to others, because I believe that’s one of the main things Jesus wants us to do while we’re on the earth.

Can you tell me more about that? We did a fair amount of service when I was young, but a lot of it as directed internally, towards members in our ward.

Service to outsiders and service to community members are both nice things. There’s a lot of value being part of a close knit community that takes care of all its members.

[Baker]

And some Mormon mercenaries killed people who came into areas they claimed.

[TokyoBayer]

@puzzlegal

Service to outsiders and service to community members are both nice things. There’s a lot of value being part of a close knit community that takes care of all its members.

Certainly. I look at my mother who relocated from SLC to Georgia and had an instant community.

However, having a tight knit group is different when they are the majority, such as in Utah, where some may see it as exclusionary.

All that aside, I’m more interested in the change in the Church in the 40 years since I left it. Back then, we tended to keep to ourselves more.

[Sauron]

@TokyoBayer

Can you tell me more about that? We did a fair amount of service when I was young, but a lot of it as directed internally, towards members in our ward.

That’s still the bulk of the service projects. The main thing in our area is helping members move in and out of the ward. We’ve got a major hospital in our area, and many young couples move in and out every year – usually because one or both people are in the medical profession and have accepted jobs or fellowships, or have become part of a medical study program for a short time. We also have a few older members who need help with yard work or other projects.

However, the Church has an active disaster relief program, and being relatively close to the Gulf Coast and in a tornado-prone area means we’ve also gotten multiple opportunities to offer cleanup services in stricken areas. I’ve spent weekends in south Alabama and parts of Florida doing hurricane cleanup (debris only – we don’t get into stuff involving utilities and whatnot).

The Missionaries serving in our ward (we usually have four or five at any given time) were always available to help members, but they recently received new instructions – they can’t serve members unless a non-member is part of the effort. So, for example, if a couple were moving into the ward, they couldn’t help unless a non-member was also helping the people move.

@TokyoBayer

Since I’m asking others, what is your impression of polygamy?

It’s not really discussed today. I get the feeling it’s like the crazy uncle of the family – we know he’s there, but nobody wants to talk about him.

I realize that’s one of the primary details of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that non-members focus on (“So, Sauron, since you’re a Mormon, how many wives can you have now?Huh-huh”), but from my perspective it’s a non-issue. The prevailing attitude in our area seems to be “It happened, it doesn’t happen any more in the Church, so there’s no point in dwelling on it.”

It’s interesting being part of a religion that’s not “mainstream” in our area. In the Deep South, you can’t swing a dead possum without hitting a church, but 90% of the churches you’ll hit are some flavor of Baptist. When I was Baptist I didn’t really think about it that much, but now that I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints it’s definitely a shift in viewpoint. We’re not ostracized, exactly, but I get different vibes from folks when they ask what church I go to. I’m fairly certain I missed out on a job opportunity over the summer because of my religion.

[puzzlegal]

As i sat on a wall near the entrance to the hospital i visited today, i was approached by two young women. One asked me, “would you like to attend church this Sunday?” I replied, “no, thanks”. She said, “okay” and started to leave, but i asked her what church. “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”.

That was an extremely low-key attempt at proselytizing me.

Oh, by her accent, she was American. Probably fairly local.

[Monty]

@TokyoBayer

@Monty and @raspberry_hunter how much are current members aware of polygamy?

In my experience–regulary attending church in Germany, the United States, Japan, South Korea, and China, and occasionally in Singapore and Hong Kong (those last two while on holiday)–adults are very aware the church practiced polygamy in the past. When Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants is discussed in Sunday School or Priesthood Quorum/Relief Society meeting, the emphasis is this was permitted by God and thus fine and then Official Declaration 1 is discussed along with an emphasis this meant the Lord now does not now give permission. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone explicitly say that means God might give permission again in the future, but it’s certainly the logical conclusion anyone could and should get from that.

This year’s Come, Follow Me curriculum happens to be Doctrine and Covenants. Sections 129 through 132 are slated for study the week of November 10 to 16. Since that’s the third Sunday of the month, it will be Sunday School for the adults. I’ll pay close attention to the discussion to see what the members say.

@puzzlegal

That’s interesting. I thought there’d been a revelation to end it.

@puzzlegal

That’s interesting. I thought there’d been a revelation to end it.

That would be Official Declaration 1 in Doctrine and Covenants.

@Crane

Some years ago, a pair of LDS missionaries came to the door. The wife and I invited them in for some pleasant conversation. No hard sell. They made an appointment to come back with the Bishop. At that meeting they made a glossy presentation from a large folder. The Bishop filled in the fine points. One of the things he covered was that an accountant would meet with us once a year and go over our IRS filing to determine the tithe. I have been told by other LDS that is not true. So, I am curious, how is the tithe determined? We were making good bucks at the time, so would I have had to shell out twenty five thousand cash to get a membership card?

The flip book you’re talking about is what used to be called the discussions. That’s been replaced by Preach My Gospel. There’s a lot in there, but not one flip book discussion. When it came out, I reviewed it to compare to how the missionaries who preached to me worked and it turned out they did a lot of that and this was quite some time before Preach My Gospel. They did run through the flip book thing because they were required to. The missionaries and the member who visited with me weren’t automatons so I guess I got a better experience than many others did.

As both an active (the LDS word for practicing) member and when I was a member of a bishopric, we never had to pull out our pay slips, tax statements, or anything at all like that. The tithing is determined by the tithe-payer. I believe the key point for each person is what does it mean to them to pay a tithe on their increase, what does increase mean. It seems to me that’s a discussion held in a lot of denominations. There’s an annual meeting with the bishop or branch president for somethign called tithing settlement. They ask the member if they’re a full tithe-payer and they may discuss other things, such as how one’s doing in their calling, are there any concerns the member has, things like that.

There’s no membership card. (Well, technically there isn’t, but if you want to, you can print out your member information page from the church’s website after you log-in.) There is something called a temple recommend which is required to enter a temple for ordinances there. That requires two interviews: one with the bishop/branch president and then the second with the stake president/district president.

@SailorHG

Depending on your Bishop they may tell you that you can’t give blessings for the sick without a recommend

I’ve never heard of a bishop doing that. A temple recommend is certainly not a requirement for blessing the sick or afflicted

[SailorHG]

I agree, it’s most certainly not a requirement. And yet…

Over in the exmormon subreddit, several times per year you’ll get someone who’s PIMO (physically in, mentally out) saying they aren’t being allowed to baptise their kids or even bless their newborn without having a valid temple recommend… which they can’t get until they catch up on their tithing. It’s a blatant abuse of power by these bishops.

[TokyoBayer]

@Sauron

The Missionaries serving in our ward (we usually have four or five at any given time) were always available to help members, but they recently received new instructions – they can’t serve members unless a non-member is part of the effort.

I see an opportunity for part time jobs!! Rent a non-member! Then you get for able-bodied young men to help witht he move!

@Monty

I’ll pay close attention to the discussion to see what the members say.

I’ll be really interested in hearing what people say.

It’s interesting to note the change in teaching from polygamy being suspended to it’s finished and just something that happened before.

@Sauron

I’m a fairly recent convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints – I joined in 2021. I spent most of my life as a Southern Baptist, with about four years of attending a non-denominational church as well.

What are the biggest differences you see between being LDS and a Southern Baptist?